I couldn't agree more. I sent this to the Rabbis and Jewish clergy in my life--and I hope they are able to see the whole thing and not just the first 8 or 9 minutes. Peter, please do consider making this one open. And thank you for doing ALL that you do.
Thank you from the botton of my heart for this interview. I have been wanting/waiting for the religious voice within Judaism to speak out in prophetic terms in harsh condemnation of the State of Israel, such as Jeremiah and Amos might do. Beyond the modern vocabulary of human rights, which offers up its own litany of condemnatory terms--genocide, apartheid, settler colonialism--which do not hit the note I've wanted to sound, is this prophetic language from the Bible that Professor Schorsch speaks here. I've wanted the harshest possible language of condemnation to fall on the State of Israel, because of its actions, beyond what the modern language of human rights gives us, the language of sin and even of abomination as Professor Schorsch employs. I've wanted the language of stain and hypocrisy that he uses to fall on the religion of Judaism itself in light of Israel's behavior and for a warning to sound that Israel's behavior will saddle all Jews to come with a sin so momentous it may be beyond forgiving, on Yom Kippur, or any other day, until such time, which now feels infinitely distant, when descendants of today's Palestinians may themselves come to forgive what has been done. Thank you, Professor Schorsch, and Peter, for this interview that finally gives some relief for what has been pent up inside me.
Thank you very much for this interview. This gentleman is eloquent and insightful, and I think (and hope) that his views are disseminated widely. I suspect a great many diasporan (and many Israeli) Jews share such feelings and concerns. The Zionists seem to be working hard to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism; interviews such as this are powerful confirmation that such criticisms has nothing to do with criticism of Jews and Judaism.
Don’t adherents of all religions strike such notes of superiority and supremacy? Because if your religion isn’t the best or truest, how would your members want to continue their affiliation?
But regardless that why the separation of church and state is one our natio's most important founding principles. And one we should guard and protect. I disagree with the tenents of many religions. But it has never been the reason I voted for or against a political candidate.
What the Rabbi and other Israel apologists won't recognize or admit is that Israel didn't happen to lose it way, but has been on a path to fascism from the start. Ethno-supremacy always leads eventually to authoritarianism and fascism, because subjugated people will eventually fight for their equality and harsher and harsher tactics will be required to keep them down.
If the notion of the possibility of an enlightened zionism was not dispelled by the 2018 nation-state law, the actions of Israel during the last two year certainly have. On that Hamas has succeeded. And the Rabbi and his like-minded fellow proud zionists are either too obtuse or so morally and intellectually dishonest to admit it.
Yes, to quote Rabbi Schorsch here: "What you are asking me about is how the Jewish state, once it was created in 1948, administered the ethical principles on which it was founded. In your book, The Crisis of Zionism, you go back again and again to the Declaration of Independence, which embraces equality and justice, and correctly so, because that is the voice of the prophets. ... The Declaration of Independence embraced the prophetic voice. That was our responsibility, and it was difficult for the state to live by that. I think the state did seek to live by that principle as long as it could, but the complexity of the land" [sentence unfinished]
On what evidence does the Rabbi think that the state of Israel did seek to live by the principle in its Declaration of Independence that it "will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens without distinction of race, creed or sex"? It forced out 85% of the non-Jewish population living in the land it controlled (who made up half of the overall population there), and whatever you can say about the chaos of war, the state of Israel never allowed these people to return. Because it "couldn't"?? Israel subsequently allowed in a lot more other people, immigrants, from other places.
By the way, because he is someone who was forced out of Germany under the Nazi regime, the current German government will restore his German citizenship and allow him to live in Germany as a full citizen for as long as he wants -- and will even grant the same right to all of his descendants.
As a side note, your final paragraph paragraph describes my family's experience. My father and his parents were driven from their home in Germany in 1939. He, his mother, sister, and grandparents travelled with visas to Cuba on the SS St Louis to join my grandfather there. As is well-known, they were refused entry to Cuba, the US, Canada, and all countries in the hemisphere, and sent back to Europe. He and his immediate family survived, his grandparents were taken from Belgium and executed along with approximately 250 of the other Jewish passengers. 85 years later, I am seeking German citizenship for my son and myself, in part to secure a temporary "European option" if the repression unleashed by false accusations of antisemitism continues to escalate or if the efforts of Jewish Supremacists to blur Zionism and Jewishness finally succeed and deserved anti-Zionist rage becomes anti-Jewish violence.
Such a fascinating and moving discussion. Regarding religious leaders committing grave offenses against their own moral principles, or not speaking out against such offenses, he mentions in addition to many Jewish religious leaders today, the Protestants and their cooperation with the Nazis in Germany, as well as the Catholic Church (going as far back as their repression of Protestants), etc. It seems that this is sadly an aspect of many religious traditions (maybe all?) that contain both prophets and those who commit moral violations that are beyond redemption. I recommend the book Buddhism Betrayed by the late great anthropologist Stanley Tambiah about how Buddhism in Sri Lanka turned away from its contemplative and complex tenets to become a mere badge of identity. Buddhist supremacists committed heinous acts of political violence during the long civil war in Sri Lanka and abandoned democracy in favor of a state favoring Buddhists as opposed to all other groups.
Unfortunate the dam breaks once the damage is irreversible, and one can safely weep over the moral outrage without the chance of having staunched the bleeding. Fortunately 1000% more in good faith and thoughtful than Summers’ sophistry
A welcome contribution to American Jewish understanding. The failure to address Israel 's crimes since 1948 is disturbing. The next step after the end of the genocide is planning a tour of Palestinian speakers to American synagogues. Can you imagine?
What an inspiring conversation. It'sgiven me new language to deal with the crass hypocrisy we see so much of today from fake-religious adherents: “a desecration.”
Kars for Kids: Part of the American Jewish Propaganda Machine(AJPM)
The Jewish AIPAC(American Israel Public Affairs Committee) knows how to throw their weight around They terminated Jamaal Bowman’s political career and then later Andy Levine a Jewish fellow who made the mistake of going counter to the AJPM
The Kars for Kids ad that frequently shows on MSNBC is a front for the American Jewish community, a nonprofit that raises funds for youth development, educational, and mentoring programs by accepting car and property donations How much of that money goes back to the motherland to fund the Israeli genocide?
It’s great that prominent Jewish celebrities like Jon Stewart and Peter Beinart to stand up against the AJPM and voice their criticism of the Israeli government about the Israeli country’s Holocaust of the Palestinian people Even mass protests are occurring in Israel against this horrific humanitarian atrocity being waged against the Palestinians Zohran Mamdami has even bridged this cultural gap with the NY Jewish population who have supported his candidacy for NY mayor The DNC should pay attention and not be influenced by such people as Simon Rosenberg(Hopium Chronicles substack channel….consider not supporting)
It is my impression that Israel's founders would have promised and agreed to anything in order to get a majority vote at the U.N. They did not believe that non-Jews should have equal rights in Israel and they had no intention of giving them equal rights but they had to pay lip service. I don't know if Lester Pearson (A strong Christian Zionist) or Ivan Rand, the Canadians who headed up the U.N. Commision which proposed the unfair partition believed that Israel would actually carry through with the democratic language or whether the Europeans who backed the unfair parition believed it. Ben Gurion wrote that the U.N. vote was only the first step in Israel's plan to have a greater Israel
This is an extraordinary interview. Rabbi Schorsch is an extraordinary human being. Peter's questions reflected the current thinking of too many, and the Rabbi answered them with authority and wisdom. I hope this conversation is widely circulated in advance of the High Holidays.
There is a problem with the description of the Topics listed above for this very profound discussion. The 5th topic is described as "How Zionism has consumed Judaism", while Rabbi Shoresh very clearly said that he is a proud Zionist. The 5th topic should have been defined as "How extreme messianic right-wing members of the Israeli government are distorting the principles that the (secular) founders of the State inscribed in the Israeli Declaration of Independence." Rabbi Shoresh said he is very proud of that Declaration, whose principles are in the prophetic tradition he admires that is being desecrated by the current Israeli government.
Can you make this segment publicly accessible?
I couldn't agree more. I sent this to the Rabbis and Jewish clergy in my life--and I hope they are able to see the whole thing and not just the first 8 or 9 minutes. Peter, please do consider making this one open. And thank you for doing ALL that you do.
Thank you from the botton of my heart for this interview. I have been wanting/waiting for the religious voice within Judaism to speak out in prophetic terms in harsh condemnation of the State of Israel, such as Jeremiah and Amos might do. Beyond the modern vocabulary of human rights, which offers up its own litany of condemnatory terms--genocide, apartheid, settler colonialism--which do not hit the note I've wanted to sound, is this prophetic language from the Bible that Professor Schorsch speaks here. I've wanted the harshest possible language of condemnation to fall on the State of Israel, because of its actions, beyond what the modern language of human rights gives us, the language of sin and even of abomination as Professor Schorsch employs. I've wanted the language of stain and hypocrisy that he uses to fall on the religion of Judaism itself in light of Israel's behavior and for a warning to sound that Israel's behavior will saddle all Jews to come with a sin so momentous it may be beyond forgiving, on Yom Kippur, or any other day, until such time, which now feels infinitely distant, when descendants of today's Palestinians may themselves come to forgive what has been done. Thank you, Professor Schorsch, and Peter, for this interview that finally gives some relief for what has been pent up inside me.
Thank you very much for this interview. This gentleman is eloquent and insightful, and I think (and hope) that his views are disseminated widely. I suspect a great many diasporan (and many Israeli) Jews share such feelings and concerns. The Zionists seem to be working hard to conflate criticism of Israel with anti-Semitism; interviews such as this are powerful confirmation that such criticisms has nothing to do with criticism of Jews and Judaism.
What I hear from the Rabbi is a call for a kinder, gentler form of Jewish supremacy. Is there such a thing?
Don’t adherents of all religions strike such notes of superiority and supremacy? Because if your religion isn’t the best or truest, how would your members want to continue their affiliation?
Superior maybe, supremacy no.
But regardless that why the separation of church and state is one our natio's most important founding principles. And one we should guard and protect. I disagree with the tenents of many religions. But it has never been the reason I voted for or against a political candidate.
That is precisely what I heard.
No.
What the Rabbi and other Israel apologists won't recognize or admit is that Israel didn't happen to lose it way, but has been on a path to fascism from the start. Ethno-supremacy always leads eventually to authoritarianism and fascism, because subjugated people will eventually fight for their equality and harsher and harsher tactics will be required to keep them down.
If the notion of the possibility of an enlightened zionism was not dispelled by the 2018 nation-state law, the actions of Israel during the last two year certainly have. On that Hamas has succeeded. And the Rabbi and his like-minded fellow proud zionists are either too obtuse or so morally and intellectually dishonest to admit it.
Yes, to quote Rabbi Schorsch here: "What you are asking me about is how the Jewish state, once it was created in 1948, administered the ethical principles on which it was founded. In your book, The Crisis of Zionism, you go back again and again to the Declaration of Independence, which embraces equality and justice, and correctly so, because that is the voice of the prophets. ... The Declaration of Independence embraced the prophetic voice. That was our responsibility, and it was difficult for the state to live by that. I think the state did seek to live by that principle as long as it could, but the complexity of the land" [sentence unfinished]
On what evidence does the Rabbi think that the state of Israel did seek to live by the principle in its Declaration of Independence that it "will uphold the full social and political equality of all its citizens without distinction of race, creed or sex"? It forced out 85% of the non-Jewish population living in the land it controlled (who made up half of the overall population there), and whatever you can say about the chaos of war, the state of Israel never allowed these people to return. Because it "couldn't"?? Israel subsequently allowed in a lot more other people, immigrants, from other places.
By the way, because he is someone who was forced out of Germany under the Nazi regime, the current German government will restore his German citizenship and allow him to live in Germany as a full citizen for as long as he wants -- and will even grant the same right to all of his descendants.
As a side note, your final paragraph paragraph describes my family's experience. My father and his parents were driven from their home in Germany in 1939. He, his mother, sister, and grandparents travelled with visas to Cuba on the SS St Louis to join my grandfather there. As is well-known, they were refused entry to Cuba, the US, Canada, and all countries in the hemisphere, and sent back to Europe. He and his immediate family survived, his grandparents were taken from Belgium and executed along with approximately 250 of the other Jewish passengers. 85 years later, I am seeking German citizenship for my son and myself, in part to secure a temporary "European option" if the repression unleashed by false accusations of antisemitism continues to escalate or if the efforts of Jewish Supremacists to blur Zionism and Jewishness finally succeed and deserved anti-Zionist rage becomes anti-Jewish violence.
Required listening for any self-respecting Jew. Thanks.
Such a fascinating and moving discussion. Regarding religious leaders committing grave offenses against their own moral principles, or not speaking out against such offenses, he mentions in addition to many Jewish religious leaders today, the Protestants and their cooperation with the Nazis in Germany, as well as the Catholic Church (going as far back as their repression of Protestants), etc. It seems that this is sadly an aspect of many religious traditions (maybe all?) that contain both prophets and those who commit moral violations that are beyond redemption. I recommend the book Buddhism Betrayed by the late great anthropologist Stanley Tambiah about how Buddhism in Sri Lanka turned away from its contemplative and complex tenets to become a mere badge of identity. Buddhist supremacists committed heinous acts of political violence during the long civil war in Sri Lanka and abandoned democracy in favor of a state favoring Buddhists as opposed to all other groups.
Unfortunate the dam breaks once the damage is irreversible, and one can safely weep over the moral outrage without the chance of having staunched the bleeding. Fortunately 1000% more in good faith and thoughtful than Summers’ sophistry
deeply grateful to you both for this discussion
A welcome contribution to American Jewish understanding. The failure to address Israel 's crimes since 1948 is disturbing. The next step after the end of the genocide is planning a tour of Palestinian speakers to American synagogues. Can you imagine?
What an inspiring conversation. It'sgiven me new language to deal with the crass hypocrisy we see so much of today from fake-religious adherents: “a desecration.”
Kars for Kids: Part of the American Jewish Propaganda Machine(AJPM)
The Jewish AIPAC(American Israel Public Affairs Committee) knows how to throw their weight around They terminated Jamaal Bowman’s political career and then later Andy Levine a Jewish fellow who made the mistake of going counter to the AJPM
The Kars for Kids ad that frequently shows on MSNBC is a front for the American Jewish community, a nonprofit that raises funds for youth development, educational, and mentoring programs by accepting car and property donations How much of that money goes back to the motherland to fund the Israeli genocide?
It’s great that prominent Jewish celebrities like Jon Stewart and Peter Beinart to stand up against the AJPM and voice their criticism of the Israeli government about the Israeli country’s Holocaust of the Palestinian people Even mass protests are occurring in Israel against this horrific humanitarian atrocity being waged against the Palestinians Zohran Mamdami has even bridged this cultural gap with the NY Jewish population who have supported his candidacy for NY mayor The DNC should pay attention and not be influenced by such people as Simon Rosenberg(Hopium Chronicles substack channel….consider not supporting)
It is my impression that Israel's founders would have promised and agreed to anything in order to get a majority vote at the U.N. They did not believe that non-Jews should have equal rights in Israel and they had no intention of giving them equal rights but they had to pay lip service. I don't know if Lester Pearson (A strong Christian Zionist) or Ivan Rand, the Canadians who headed up the U.N. Commision which proposed the unfair partition believed that Israel would actually carry through with the democratic language or whether the Europeans who backed the unfair parition believed it. Ben Gurion wrote that the U.N. vote was only the first step in Israel's plan to have a greater Israel
This is an extraordinary interview. Rabbi Schorsch is an extraordinary human being. Peter's questions reflected the current thinking of too many, and the Rabbi answered them with authority and wisdom. I hope this conversation is widely circulated in advance of the High Holidays.
Deeply moving, profoundly troubling and exactly the kind of exchange we need to be hearing and having as Jews. With thanks.
There is a problem with the description of the Topics listed above for this very profound discussion. The 5th topic is described as "How Zionism has consumed Judaism", while Rabbi Shoresh very clearly said that he is a proud Zionist. The 5th topic should have been defined as "How extreme messianic right-wing members of the Israeli government are distorting the principles that the (secular) founders of the State inscribed in the Israeli Declaration of Independence." Rabbi Shoresh said he is very proud of that Declaration, whose principles are in the prophetic tradition he admires that is being desecrated by the current Israeli government.
Is a transcript available?