This is brilliant. I too am weeping, as a fairly secular and very active anti-zionist Jew most of my life. I am humbled by the power of religious understanding to speak truth to those that hold so much influence over the mainstream majority of U.S. Jews who won't listen to us. Keep speaking, Peter!
AMEN!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Peter, from all the children whose bodies are still decomposing under the rubble of their former bedrooms while solders of the most "moral" army in the world play with their toys and ridicule what was their lives. This hurts so much, every hour!
My experience of local rabbis is of simply not doing what is morally right, whether believing in god or not, out of anxiety of alienating congregants. Several years ago I told the rabbi that I thought it very inappropriate to display the national flags of Israel and the U.S. on the bima—on either side of the ark. She said “Oh, ok.” She moved them out. A congregant complained and said if the flags were not put back he would resign his membership. The flags were back. Total lack of leadership, confusion of guiding principles.
Your question whether rabbis believe in God reaches beyond rabbis to include people who set out as Christians to remain faithful to the truth. I wish there were Christian leaders speaking out as cogently as you, and willing to run the risks you run, not to mention clergymen prepared to take up the cross, and follow.
Rabbi Gabriel Hagaï in Paris, France is the only rabbi (in France) to my knowledge who has spoken out in support of the Palestinians and is open in his criticism of the Israeli government...and he doesn't even have a congregation! He is a herbalist, a baker and a renowned expert on ancient hebraic manuscripts and the living presence of the Tzadik to whom people flock for advice and prayer. I have not heard another rabbi in France speak out so clearly against the massacre and the renowned Rabbi Delphine Horvilleur finally spoke up on APRIL 25th of this year...far too late in my opinion. (https://www.facebook.com/gabriel.hagai/)
Levi Yitzchok of Barditchev once said to an atheist “the god you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in him either.” I’d say the biggest difference between me and Peter is that I’m not a God-fearing man at all. But one thing we do have in common is that if I did believe in a personal God, it would be more in line with the God that Peter Beinart believes in than the God that most Zionists believe in. This being the God that Eli Wiesel could not believe was present during the Shoah; who could watch the suffering of so many and allow it to transpire.
Such intellectual dishonesty is so common among religious apologetics ... atheists don't believe in *any* gods, including the one that Mr. Yitzchok *did* believe in.
And much as I admire Peter's moral stance, he is hopelessly confused about the realities of religion. The god he believes in is in his head, but is not to be found in the world or in scripture, other than via incredibly selective cherry-picking. And as you suggest, the god that these rabbis believe in is not the one he believes in ... and is much closer to that scripture. The fact is that religious dogma is a license to hate, and many people freely employ that license.
I am no religious apologist, but I may be one of the worst atheists you’ll come across. I may be more Spinozist than atheist. That is, if there is a higher power, it is only logical to include that It is indifferent to our foibles. According to Maimonides, this makes me an Apikores.
I don’t think Peter is confused at all about the realities of religion. He has just come to a radically distinct conclusion than we have about the role of religion. While unfortunately, many traditional Jews do not have the same view on God that Peter does, I think it’s very important for people like Peter to be among Orthodox Jews. But Peter is well aware of how God is traditionally viewed in Judaism; he merely rejects that characterization.
One of my favorite sayings in the Talmud comes from a Mishna in Eduyoth 5:7. The Mishna records four major disputes Akavya ben Mehalalel had with the rest of the Sanhedrin, which put him at odds with them. As a man of principle, he refused to change his views. At one point he was offered a position of head of the court on the condition that he retract his views. Akavya refused, saying that he’d rather be called a fool for the rest of his life than to be called a wicked man who retracted his views so he could attain a position of power.
Before Akavya died, he requested that his son retract those four views. The son asked why Akavya never retracted those views himself. Akavya explained that he heard those views from his rabbis, so he was allowed to maintain those views; but the son only heard it from one man, so the son was not allowed to oppose the rest of the court. The son asked the father to commend him to the others. The father refused. When the son asked if he did something wrong, the father responded no. “Your own deeds will bring you closer, and your own deeds with bring you farther.”
This is how I, the bad atheist, see Peter’s position among the Orthodox Jews. He is Akavya, and he is opposing the popular opinion pretty openly. But even so, he says “your actions will bring you closer…”. And this is the way of being a rogue among what Isaiah called “a people of unclean lips.”
I really don't care what you are, and I find these narratives from the Talmud etc. boring and I skip over them. What I wrote is true--Peter is committing a No True Scotsman fallacy, suggesting that rabbis who don't "fear heaven" aren't true believers.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. And other than the statement about atheist believing in no gods, most of what you wrote is your opinion (which you are entitled to) and thus not an objective truth or falsehood.
Siths? I don't value these idiotic (and extremely hypocritical--that saying is *intentionally* self-referential ... see https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/rik8oz/only_a_sith_deals_in_absolutes_is_a_genius_line/) memes from popular entertainment and I didn't "deal in absolutes"--what a dishonest ad hominem. Saying that something is true doesn't deal in absolutes, hypocrite. And it's an objective fact that Peter is committing a No True Scotsman fallacy--or at least you have offered no rebuttal, only this cowardly nonsense. Muting intellectually dishonest trash.
"Do you support the claim that the [Israeli army] in conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites did when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, i.e., to kill all its inhabitants?"
I respect your work and I agree with your criticism of synagogues for their silence on Gaza. But I found your message here problematic. You have sacrificed a lot by admirably following your conscience - but you didn't risk it all. You are a tenured professor doing this work as an extra curricular. But here you are preaching to salaried rabbis to be like the South African young rabbi you set up as a paragon. You acknowledge the precariousness of these rabbis' employment situation but urge them to be like that young man who chose to follow his conscience, thereby giving up his job, his community and his country.
You could still deliver the same message but perhaps with a little humility, acknowledging your different circumstances and with understanding for those less fortunate than yourself.
Richard Dawkins is no less passionate about what he sees as the evils of religion than you are about blind support for Israel. And he helped set up an organization to support clergy who had become atheist but could not support themselves outside the pulpit. He helped these atheist pastors leave their pulpits and find community and get help from likeminded people. And Dawkins' tone with regard those clergy who lost their faith yet remained in their pulpits for lack of other employment is a gentle one. May I suggest that Dawkins' approach be a model for you. Support rabbis who would be risking all by speaking out rather than telling them off.
Indeed faith of any religion requires the view of absolute equality.
Although I belong to the CBST synagogue, I have always had a hard time in terms of beliefs — but, as my late spouse’s father answered her about his beliefs in this manner: “I talk with Him all the time” defines where I’m at.
There’s no question that organized religions have caused horrible damage, and continues to do so. BUT as I understand both Christianity and Judaism, both extoll equity, compassion, responsibility. IF those practicing these religions are not adhering to the demands of their faith, well you can’t blame the religions, you can only look at the people profiting in misinterpretations and try to stop their venom.
USA is an incredible experiment, one which should be the beacon for countries around the world. Where else but here (Jackson Heights to be exact) can you walk along several city blocks and encounter over 200 different languages? That’s remarkable and that’s worth fighting for.
I'm weeping at your clarity.....
This is brilliant. I too am weeping, as a fairly secular and very active anti-zionist Jew most of my life. I am humbled by the power of religious understanding to speak truth to those that hold so much influence over the mainstream majority of U.S. Jews who won't listen to us. Keep speaking, Peter!
AMEN!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Peter, from all the children whose bodies are still decomposing under the rubble of their former bedrooms while solders of the most "moral" army in the world play with their toys and ridicule what was their lives. This hurts so much, every hour!
Your words bring tears to my eyes. I am hurting with you. Every minute. Every hour.
A message for all religious leaders. Thank you!
My experience of local rabbis is of simply not doing what is morally right, whether believing in god or not, out of anxiety of alienating congregants. Several years ago I told the rabbi that I thought it very inappropriate to display the national flags of Israel and the U.S. on the bima—on either side of the ark. She said “Oh, ok.” She moved them out. A congregant complained and said if the flags were not put back he would resign his membership. The flags were back. Total lack of leadership, confusion of guiding principles.
Your question whether rabbis believe in God reaches beyond rabbis to include people who set out as Christians to remain faithful to the truth. I wish there were Christian leaders speaking out as cogently as you, and willing to run the risks you run, not to mention clergymen prepared to take up the cross, and follow.
Mike Huckabee has been speaking out. But with the opposite message.
Rabbi Gabriel Hagaï in Paris, France is the only rabbi (in France) to my knowledge who has spoken out in support of the Palestinians and is open in his criticism of the Israeli government...and he doesn't even have a congregation! He is a herbalist, a baker and a renowned expert on ancient hebraic manuscripts and the living presence of the Tzadik to whom people flock for advice and prayer. I have not heard another rabbi in France speak out so clearly against the massacre and the renowned Rabbi Delphine Horvilleur finally spoke up on APRIL 25th of this year...far too late in my opinion. (https://www.facebook.com/gabriel.hagai/)
Never too late if we are in the midst of doing the work of building a movement that will champion the humanity of Palestinians.
So powerful Peter. Thank you.
Thank you for this compelling call to live into our faith.
Thank you, Peter. Again and again.
Levi Yitzchok of Barditchev once said to an atheist “the god you don’t believe in, I don’t believe in him either.” I’d say the biggest difference between me and Peter is that I’m not a God-fearing man at all. But one thing we do have in common is that if I did believe in a personal God, it would be more in line with the God that Peter Beinart believes in than the God that most Zionists believe in. This being the God that Eli Wiesel could not believe was present during the Shoah; who could watch the suffering of so many and allow it to transpire.
Such intellectual dishonesty is so common among religious apologetics ... atheists don't believe in *any* gods, including the one that Mr. Yitzchok *did* believe in.
And much as I admire Peter's moral stance, he is hopelessly confused about the realities of religion. The god he believes in is in his head, but is not to be found in the world or in scripture, other than via incredibly selective cherry-picking. And as you suggest, the god that these rabbis believe in is not the one he believes in ... and is much closer to that scripture. The fact is that religious dogma is a license to hate, and many people freely employ that license.
Hi Jibal.
I am no religious apologist, but I may be one of the worst atheists you’ll come across. I may be more Spinozist than atheist. That is, if there is a higher power, it is only logical to include that It is indifferent to our foibles. According to Maimonides, this makes me an Apikores.
I don’t think Peter is confused at all about the realities of religion. He has just come to a radically distinct conclusion than we have about the role of religion. While unfortunately, many traditional Jews do not have the same view on God that Peter does, I think it’s very important for people like Peter to be among Orthodox Jews. But Peter is well aware of how God is traditionally viewed in Judaism; he merely rejects that characterization.
One of my favorite sayings in the Talmud comes from a Mishna in Eduyoth 5:7. The Mishna records four major disputes Akavya ben Mehalalel had with the rest of the Sanhedrin, which put him at odds with them. As a man of principle, he refused to change his views. At one point he was offered a position of head of the court on the condition that he retract his views. Akavya refused, saying that he’d rather be called a fool for the rest of his life than to be called a wicked man who retracted his views so he could attain a position of power.
Before Akavya died, he requested that his son retract those four views. The son asked why Akavya never retracted those views himself. Akavya explained that he heard those views from his rabbis, so he was allowed to maintain those views; but the son only heard it from one man, so the son was not allowed to oppose the rest of the court. The son asked the father to commend him to the others. The father refused. When the son asked if he did something wrong, the father responded no. “Your own deeds will bring you closer, and your own deeds with bring you farther.”
This is how I, the bad atheist, see Peter’s position among the Orthodox Jews. He is Akavya, and he is opposing the popular opinion pretty openly. But even so, he says “your actions will bring you closer…”. And this is the way of being a rogue among what Isaiah called “a people of unclean lips.”
I really don't care what you are, and I find these narratives from the Talmud etc. boring and I skip over them. What I wrote is true--Peter is committing a No True Scotsman fallacy, suggesting that rabbis who don't "fear heaven" aren't true believers.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. And other than the statement about atheist believing in no gods, most of what you wrote is your opinion (which you are entitled to) and thus not an objective truth or falsehood.
Siths? I don't value these idiotic (and extremely hypocritical--that saying is *intentionally* self-referential ... see https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/rik8oz/only_a_sith_deals_in_absolutes_is_a_genius_line/) memes from popular entertainment and I didn't "deal in absolutes"--what a dishonest ad hominem. Saying that something is true doesn't deal in absolutes, hypocrite. And it's an objective fact that Peter is committing a No True Scotsman fallacy--or at least you have offered no rebuttal, only this cowardly nonsense. Muting intellectually dishonest trash.
"Don’t let the door slam."
Just what is expected of such trash.
Well thank you for your time. Don’t let the door slam.
Don't forget that poll conducted by Penn State in March.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/majority-israelis-support-expulsion-palestinians-gaza-poll
When asked,
"Do you support the claim that the [Israeli army] in conquering an enemy city, should act in a manner similar to the way the Israelites did when they conquered Jericho under the leadership of Joshua, i.e., to kill all its inhabitants?"
47% of Israeli Jews answered "Yes."
Right. They believe in a god ... the one that is actually found in their scripture written by primitive warring tribes.
I respect your work and I agree with your criticism of synagogues for their silence on Gaza. But I found your message here problematic. You have sacrificed a lot by admirably following your conscience - but you didn't risk it all. You are a tenured professor doing this work as an extra curricular. But here you are preaching to salaried rabbis to be like the South African young rabbi you set up as a paragon. You acknowledge the precariousness of these rabbis' employment situation but urge them to be like that young man who chose to follow his conscience, thereby giving up his job, his community and his country.
You could still deliver the same message but perhaps with a little humility, acknowledging your different circumstances and with understanding for those less fortunate than yourself.
Richard Dawkins is no less passionate about what he sees as the evils of religion than you are about blind support for Israel. And he helped set up an organization to support clergy who had become atheist but could not support themselves outside the pulpit. He helped these atheist pastors leave their pulpits and find community and get help from likeminded people. And Dawkins' tone with regard those clergy who lost their faith yet remained in their pulpits for lack of other employment is a gentle one. May I suggest that Dawkins' approach be a model for you. Support rabbis who would be risking all by speaking out rather than telling them off.
Indeed faith of any religion requires the view of absolute equality.
Although I belong to the CBST synagogue, I have always had a hard time in terms of beliefs — but, as my late spouse’s father answered her about his beliefs in this manner: “I talk with Him all the time” defines where I’m at.
The facts show otherwise--a huge amount of prejudice is rooted in religion and religious dogma.
There’s no question that organized religions have caused horrible damage, and continues to do so. BUT as I understand both Christianity and Judaism, both extoll equity, compassion, responsibility. IF those practicing these religions are not adhering to the demands of their faith, well you can’t blame the religions, you can only look at the people profiting in misinterpretations and try to stop their venom.
USA is an incredible experiment, one which should be the beacon for countries around the world. Where else but here (Jackson Heights to be exact) can you walk along several city blocks and encounter over 200 different languages? That’s remarkable and that’s worth fighting for.
"as I understand both Christianity and Judaism"
You clearly don't understand them very well, and are in active denial of their real nature.
"USA is an incredible experiment,"
I have no idea why you're blathering about this, which has nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Let’s agree to disagree. I’m not about to argue in uncivilized ways.
Thanks, Peter -- Israel is the Rabbi's new God -- a form of idol-worship -- The wonderful Rabbis of the JVP Rabbinical Council don't have congregations, but help keep us sane, and motivated to do the right thing. https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/rabbinical-council/#:~:text=The%20JVP%20Rabbinical%20Council%20is,solidarity%20movement%2C%20and%20each%20other.
Thank you Peter. At last the lies
are exposed and confirmed by
Israeli human rights groups and
Many others in Israel.
Linda