For my entire adult lifetime, the mainstream American conversation about Israel-Palestine—the one you watch on cable television and read on the opinion pages—has been a conversation among political Zionists. Its participants have argued over how the Jewish state should behave, not whether it should exist. Last year that began to change. Palestinians entered America’s public discussion in an unprecedented way, and with their entrance, anti-Zionism entered too. In 2021, the terms of US discourse began to shift. The ramifications of that shift will likely be with us for decades to come.
I think it’s interesting that Beinart conflates criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism with “Palestinian voices.” Not all Palestinians are anti-Zionist, polls show about half support the two state solution. Or would he agree that more Palestinians like Khaled Abu Toameh and Bassem Eid should go on CNN?
The vast majority of Americans and in world are Zionists in the sense that they recognize Israel’s existence and don’t want to destroy it. Maybe then the reason why more Palestinians aren’t being interviewed is because they tend to be anti-Zionist, and that’s not what mainstream American media outlets want to present. They want to hear that the Palestinians are victims, and they want peace, but Israel won’t make peace with them. Not “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.” I weep for the Palestinians if the only representation they have are those who want to fight endlessly until Israel is destroyed. That won’t end well for anyone.
It’s good for the Palestinians that they have entered mainstream media, though I would disagree with the author about the extent to which they have penetrated mainstream American society. It is too bad those who get there are the anti-peace, anti-Jewish rights, anti-Zionist ones. I would also disagree with the author and say that the Palestinian perspective has been heard, but has traditionally come from anti-Zionist Jews like the author, not Palestinians themselves. Maybe the author should delete his substack and make room for actual Palestinians.
Perhaps another reason why most conversations are between hawkish Zionists and dovish Zionists is because among Zionists there are actual differences of opinion. Among pro-Palestinians, anti-Zionism is the order of the day and as far as I can tell little to no dissent is tolerated. Just ask Norman Finkelstein. In other words it doesn’t matter how many social media followers Nora Erekat has if she’s saying the exact same things as Peter Beinart and every other anti-Zionist on the planet.
In conclusion, it’s great that those Palestinians who are there are representing their community in the media. It’s just too bad that those representatives are opposed to peace and Jewish rights.
"polls show about half support the two state solution" based on what data? A brief search produced: "Recent Palestinian polls reveal that nearly three-quarters believe the chances of establishing a Palestinian state are slim to none. And in a separate question, 59 percent say the "two-state solution" is no longer feasible due to settlement spread. Forty-two percent, a plurality, believe the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation is armed struggle."
This British person can entirely understand the feelings of despair amongst Palestinian people, with some of the most powerful nations on the planet determined to prevent them regaining their land which was violently ripped from them by armed, openly-racist colonial settlers from 1948 to the present day.
"anti-peace, anti-Jewish rights, anti-Zionist ones" makes the assumption that Zionism is a peaceful ideology. Given its violent history and that Zionist, apartheid Israel has vast stocks of US-supplied arms along with illegal nuclear weapons, I dispute your claim. No people has the right to deny others the right to exist, which is the undenied policy of the apartheid government in Israel.
In general and over the last two decades, about half of Palestinians have supported the two state solution. Maybe not at this exact moment in time, but in general the numbers have fluctuated around 50%. You can review many years of polls at this link and see. https://www.pcpsr.org/
Your comment seems to be making my argument for me. American media outlets are seeking to present the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one of two nation states in dispute over borders and security, and maybe framing it as oppressed Palestinians yearning to be free. They do NOT want to show the side of the Palestinian narrative that you are advocating for: the side that takes issue with Israel's entire existence, that won't stop fighting until all of the "stolen land" from the river to the sea is acquired, and that views Israelis as, in your words, "armed openly racist colonial settlers." It runs counter to the entire narrative of an oppressed people yearning to be free that Palestine itself has been presenting for years and makes the conflict seem hopeless and intractable.
I for one would appreciate it if all Palestine advocates like the Palestinian government, Beinart, and yourself were honest and just came out and said that it doesn't matter if the occupation ends, if the settlements are all removed, and Jerusalem is given to a Palestinian state. The conflict would continue until Israel's existence as a Jewish state is terminated. Then we could all be on the same page and able to recognize the problem for what it truly is.
"No people has the right to deny others the right to exist"
Surely you can recognize the irony of this comment, left on an anti-Zionist blog by an anti-Zionist commentator.
The oppression of Palestinian people seems "hopeless and intractable" only if we accept it as an inevitable consequence of their failing to toe the Zionist line - the one you support. Israel has no moral right to exist as an ethno-nationalist Jewish state, one which has never been anything close to a democracy. What other such states are there in the world today? Palestinian people need the same civil and human rights as do white Jewish people, yet you and your fellow Zionists are determined to continue denying them these rights. Consequently, we will fight as hard as we can until those rights are achieved.
I deliberately used the sentence about denying others the right to exist. It's called irony. Many on the Jewish left have for many decades been ashamed of the obvious fact that a group of people that were historically oppressed and slaughtered have in turn used similar tactics against the innocent Palestinian people. You should regard it as instructive to consider the close links between the apartheid South African state and its equivalent in Israel during the 1970s and 80s, such that the Israeli government offered to sell SA nuclear weapons.
Similarly, you should ponder the increasingly close links between the apartheid state in Israel and far-right governments, groups and individuals around the world, many of whom are openly anti-semitic. If you regard those links as positive, that tells us the kind of world you want.
Sometimes I wonder if these sorts of accounts are Zionist commentators in disguise, trying to make anti-Zionists look unhinged and opposed to peace.
James, I’ve seen your other comments on Peter’s articles, I know you are a bad faith actor who keeps trying to change the subject because you don’t want to discuss the issue at hand. I won’t let you draw me off topic, so stop trying. We’re here to discuss Palestinian voices in mainstream US media, so try and pay attention.
As I said, mainstream American media is not interested in a narrative of “Zionism is racism, Palestine will be free from the river to the sea” and if you insist on sticking to that narrative, you will have only yourself to blame when people don’t give you a platform.
Furthermore, if you think Israel has no right to exist and the people who live there have no right to exist, that’s your opinion to which you are entitled. But if that’s the case, go kill the Jews yourself and stop asking the Palestinians to fight your battles for you. As polls show, most of them just want an end to occupation, peace, independence, and to build their own state. Which, if you read that state’s constitution, is an ethno-religious one. But somehow I ‘m not expecting you to say that state is apartheid and racist, since it’s not Jewish.
Those are the Palestinian voices to whom we all should be listening, and it’s awful that people like you and Beinart use them as pawns in a related but ultimately different battle. To reiterate, “Palestinian voices” and anti-Zionism are not the same thing and should not be conflated, by you or by anyone else. It’s just unfortunate that the hateful, violent Palestinians are the ones being heard in the media and not the peaceful moderates.
I can discuss whatever I please. You started by claiming, against current evidence, that the Palestinian people want a two-state solution. I have no interest in what the corporate media likes to discuss. It is never in the interests of the working class.
You conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Revealingly, the real hardcore anti-semitism is displayed by many Zionists and the far-right which they have allied themselves with. The realisation that Israel has no right to exist in its traditional position as a racist, exclusively white-Jewish society is becoming more the mainstream understanding around the world, thanks to the sacrificial work of so many Jewish and non-Jewish people over the last few decades. What do we want? We want Israel to be a democracy for all. What do you want? A homogenous white Jewish state - which is enormously attractive to white supremacists. No wonder they give you such support.
As for violence by Palestinians, really, as we Brits say: you've got a cheek. I do not condone any of the violence, but: "The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured. Violence was especially high in 2014 when Israel conducted Operation Protective Edge in Gaza in response to the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers. The campaign lasted seven weeks and resulted in more than 2,000 deaths, the majority of which were Gazan."
As all Palestinians know from their earliest youth: Israel, the world's corporate media and Western governments value white Jewish lives far above those of Palestinians. Clearly, so do you.
As I suspected, you have no interest in talking about the topic at hand, which is Palestinian voices in mainstream American society. This is just another bad faith comment from a bad faith commenter. You utterly failed to address any of my actual points, such as that anti-Zionism and the Palestinian narrative are not synonymous, preferring instead to pinwheel off to destinations unknown.
For the record, Israel is not exclusively white and you’d have to be a complete ignoramus to believe that. I have never said any of the views to which you ascribe me, and see no reason to waste my time debunking the rest of your propaganda claptrap.
I ’m here to talk about the Beinart article, so feel free to continue your deranged rants about whatever topic you choose, but you’ll be having that conversation with yourself, not with me.
I think it’s interesting that Beinart conflates criticism of Israel and anti-Zionism with “Palestinian voices.” Not all Palestinians are anti-Zionist, polls show about half support the two state solution. Or would he agree that more Palestinians like Khaled Abu Toameh and Bassem Eid should go on CNN?
The vast majority of Americans and in world are Zionists in the sense that they recognize Israel’s existence and don’t want to destroy it. Maybe then the reason why more Palestinians aren’t being interviewed is because they tend to be anti-Zionist, and that’s not what mainstream American media outlets want to present. They want to hear that the Palestinians are victims, and they want peace, but Israel won’t make peace with them. Not “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free.” I weep for the Palestinians if the only representation they have are those who want to fight endlessly until Israel is destroyed. That won’t end well for anyone.
It’s good for the Palestinians that they have entered mainstream media, though I would disagree with the author about the extent to which they have penetrated mainstream American society. It is too bad those who get there are the anti-peace, anti-Jewish rights, anti-Zionist ones. I would also disagree with the author and say that the Palestinian perspective has been heard, but has traditionally come from anti-Zionist Jews like the author, not Palestinians themselves. Maybe the author should delete his substack and make room for actual Palestinians.
Perhaps another reason why most conversations are between hawkish Zionists and dovish Zionists is because among Zionists there are actual differences of opinion. Among pro-Palestinians, anti-Zionism is the order of the day and as far as I can tell little to no dissent is tolerated. Just ask Norman Finkelstein. In other words it doesn’t matter how many social media followers Nora Erekat has if she’s saying the exact same things as Peter Beinart and every other anti-Zionist on the planet.
In conclusion, it’s great that those Palestinians who are there are representing their community in the media. It’s just too bad that those representatives are opposed to peace and Jewish rights.
"polls show about half support the two state solution" based on what data? A brief search produced: "Recent Palestinian polls reveal that nearly three-quarters believe the chances of establishing a Palestinian state are slim to none. And in a separate question, 59 percent say the "two-state solution" is no longer feasible due to settlement spread. Forty-two percent, a plurality, believe the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation is armed struggle."
https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/palestinians-and-two-state-solution-hard-data-hardest-questions
This British person can entirely understand the feelings of despair amongst Palestinian people, with some of the most powerful nations on the planet determined to prevent them regaining their land which was violently ripped from them by armed, openly-racist colonial settlers from 1948 to the present day.
"anti-peace, anti-Jewish rights, anti-Zionist ones" makes the assumption that Zionism is a peaceful ideology. Given its violent history and that Zionist, apartheid Israel has vast stocks of US-supplied arms along with illegal nuclear weapons, I dispute your claim. No people has the right to deny others the right to exist, which is the undenied policy of the apartheid government in Israel.
In general and over the last two decades, about half of Palestinians have supported the two state solution. Maybe not at this exact moment in time, but in general the numbers have fluctuated around 50%. You can review many years of polls at this link and see. https://www.pcpsr.org/
Your comment seems to be making my argument for me. American media outlets are seeking to present the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as one of two nation states in dispute over borders and security, and maybe framing it as oppressed Palestinians yearning to be free. They do NOT want to show the side of the Palestinian narrative that you are advocating for: the side that takes issue with Israel's entire existence, that won't stop fighting until all of the "stolen land" from the river to the sea is acquired, and that views Israelis as, in your words, "armed openly racist colonial settlers." It runs counter to the entire narrative of an oppressed people yearning to be free that Palestine itself has been presenting for years and makes the conflict seem hopeless and intractable.
I for one would appreciate it if all Palestine advocates like the Palestinian government, Beinart, and yourself were honest and just came out and said that it doesn't matter if the occupation ends, if the settlements are all removed, and Jerusalem is given to a Palestinian state. The conflict would continue until Israel's existence as a Jewish state is terminated. Then we could all be on the same page and able to recognize the problem for what it truly is.
"No people has the right to deny others the right to exist"
Surely you can recognize the irony of this comment, left on an anti-Zionist blog by an anti-Zionist commentator.
The oppression of Palestinian people seems "hopeless and intractable" only if we accept it as an inevitable consequence of their failing to toe the Zionist line - the one you support. Israel has no moral right to exist as an ethno-nationalist Jewish state, one which has never been anything close to a democracy. What other such states are there in the world today? Palestinian people need the same civil and human rights as do white Jewish people, yet you and your fellow Zionists are determined to continue denying them these rights. Consequently, we will fight as hard as we can until those rights are achieved.
I deliberately used the sentence about denying others the right to exist. It's called irony. Many on the Jewish left have for many decades been ashamed of the obvious fact that a group of people that were historically oppressed and slaughtered have in turn used similar tactics against the innocent Palestinian people. You should regard it as instructive to consider the close links between the apartheid South African state and its equivalent in Israel during the 1970s and 80s, such that the Israeli government offered to sell SA nuclear weapons.
Similarly, you should ponder the increasingly close links between the apartheid state in Israel and far-right governments, groups and individuals around the world, many of whom are openly anti-semitic. If you regard those links as positive, that tells us the kind of world you want.
Sometimes I wonder if these sorts of accounts are Zionist commentators in disguise, trying to make anti-Zionists look unhinged and opposed to peace.
James, I’ve seen your other comments on Peter’s articles, I know you are a bad faith actor who keeps trying to change the subject because you don’t want to discuss the issue at hand. I won’t let you draw me off topic, so stop trying. We’re here to discuss Palestinian voices in mainstream US media, so try and pay attention.
As I said, mainstream American media is not interested in a narrative of “Zionism is racism, Palestine will be free from the river to the sea” and if you insist on sticking to that narrative, you will have only yourself to blame when people don’t give you a platform.
Furthermore, if you think Israel has no right to exist and the people who live there have no right to exist, that’s your opinion to which you are entitled. But if that’s the case, go kill the Jews yourself and stop asking the Palestinians to fight your battles for you. As polls show, most of them just want an end to occupation, peace, independence, and to build their own state. Which, if you read that state’s constitution, is an ethno-religious one. But somehow I ‘m not expecting you to say that state is apartheid and racist, since it’s not Jewish.
Those are the Palestinian voices to whom we all should be listening, and it’s awful that people like you and Beinart use them as pawns in a related but ultimately different battle. To reiterate, “Palestinian voices” and anti-Zionism are not the same thing and should not be conflated, by you or by anyone else. It’s just unfortunate that the hateful, violent Palestinians are the ones being heard in the media and not the peaceful moderates.
I can discuss whatever I please. You started by claiming, against current evidence, that the Palestinian people want a two-state solution. I have no interest in what the corporate media likes to discuss. It is never in the interests of the working class.
You conflate anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Revealingly, the real hardcore anti-semitism is displayed by many Zionists and the far-right which they have allied themselves with. The realisation that Israel has no right to exist in its traditional position as a racist, exclusively white-Jewish society is becoming more the mainstream understanding around the world, thanks to the sacrificial work of so many Jewish and non-Jewish people over the last few decades. What do we want? We want Israel to be a democracy for all. What do you want? A homogenous white Jewish state - which is enormously attractive to white supremacists. No wonder they give you such support.
As for violence by Palestinians, really, as we Brits say: you've got a cheek. I do not condone any of the violence, but: "The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has been tracking deaths in the conflict since 2008 and its data shows that 5,600 Palestinians died up to 2020 while 115,000 were injured. 250 Israelis died during the same period while 5,600 were injured. Violence was especially high in 2014 when Israel conducted Operation Protective Edge in Gaza in response to the kidnapping and murder of three teenagers. The campaign lasted seven weeks and resulted in more than 2,000 deaths, the majority of which were Gazan."
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/
As all Palestinians know from their earliest youth: Israel, the world's corporate media and Western governments value white Jewish lives far above those of Palestinians. Clearly, so do you.
As I suspected, you have no interest in talking about the topic at hand, which is Palestinian voices in mainstream American society. This is just another bad faith comment from a bad faith commenter. You utterly failed to address any of my actual points, such as that anti-Zionism and the Palestinian narrative are not synonymous, preferring instead to pinwheel off to destinations unknown.
For the record, Israel is not exclusively white and you’d have to be a complete ignoramus to believe that. I have never said any of the views to which you ascribe me, and see no reason to waste my time debunking the rest of your propaganda claptrap.
I ’m here to talk about the Beinart article, so feel free to continue your deranged rants about whatever topic you choose, but you’ll be having that conversation with yourself, not with me.