Abby, it seems to me we should be able to hold the idea that civilians are the beneficiaries of, and often complicit in, terrible injustice, and also that their lives are precious and they should not be harmed. You mentioned white US settlers in the 19th century but what about today. If Israeli Jewish civilians don't have the right to life because they're living on stolen land, then why do Americans?
Too late, Peter. You and yours have made it clear Israelis are colonizers, apartheid racists, genocidal Nazis, and the rest, and have for decades stumped for people who murdered Israeli civilians with just as much glee and joy as they did on 10/7. To start to stop the boulder in motion now is much too little, much too late. What, you didn't think your fellow travelers meant it when they said "my heroes have always killed colonizers"?
Nice try with the whataboutery, but the topic of discussion is the pro-Palestinian left. Peter is willing to admit about the rot in the heart of the movement. Are you?
No shit I do, I'm not even a part of that moronic and self-defeating coterie. I have a pretty idiosyncratic position on the conflict. You on the other hand engage in temper tantrums to avoid dealing with the fact that the side you root for has a Kahanist national security minister and its own murderous terror gangs.
Fantastic, I'm glad we agree that large portions of the pro-Palestinian left have deeply entrenched beliefs of hatred and dehumanization of Israelis to the point where they are celebrating and cheering the unspeakable atrocities committed by Hamas on 10/7.
As for "the side I root for", I'm not sure what you're referring to. You don't have to be pro-Israel or pro-Israeli government to recognize the hateful face of the pro-Palestinian left. You just have to be intellectually honest.
Not exactly idiot. These Hamas depravities did not occur in the West Bank. No moral equivalence here. I bet you don’t believe that babies were beheaded or maybe just a few.
I can read the alphabet but don't understand the vowels, I interpolate from other Semitic languages. And I know it's most famous from La Familia and company.
Thanks Peter. Perhaps what fits my view best is the belief that no one deserves to be killed, AND that those of us living on colonized land have the responsibility to understand our histories and take action to correct injustices that result from that history.
To the contrary, a revitalized political movement for a Palestinian homeland is more essential now than ever. The problem isn’t Palestinian national liberation, it’s the means and goals in achieving it.
This horrible tragic moment has at least clarified a few thing. Just as it showed a split between an older humane western left and the younger less liberal, more ideological left, it also exposes many who long claimed to have supported a 2SS but in reality had sought to destroy it.
I’m sorry Paul, are you agreeing with me the pro Palestinian national movement does think certain people deserve to be killed? If not, can you say something pertinent to the topic?
Well, Hamas, PIJ, and other militant groups obviously think so and they are part of the Palestinian national liberation movement, so yes, I agree in that sense.
But I read your framing as having the intent to wave the bloody shirt not to humanize their victims—a laudable act that I would join you in doing— but rather to rally the cause of delegitimizing the whole idea of a movement for a Palestinian homeland, which was your exact position before 10/7. That reading strikes me as cynical and opportunistic on your part.
I would disagree with you that that is the goal of the Palestinian national liberation movement. I would argue the goal of the movement is to repeat 10/7 over and over again until all Israelis are dead, expelled, or otherwise oppressed. And the behavior of its members over the past three weeks would back up my argument more than yours. Yes?
I've never really seen a movement for a Palestinian homeland, unless you mean all of Mandatory Palestine. Palestinians correctly believe that all of it is their homeland.
"No one deserves to be killed" is a broad blanket statement we ( as humans who were raised properly) believe or say when we are talking about collateral damage. Not literally - it is rational to suspect and support some planned deaths which can be justified (the execution of a serial killer or child molester rather than wasting "rehab resources" in them for example). May I propose if we all try to find some good in everyone we can make better choices about who gets to lead and who should perhaps follow - (why allow the dummies to be in front to lead us off the cliff) or maybe have them in front to "get it" first ahahaha.
I laugh to keep from crying about all the disgusting ways people try to hurt each other. Pathetic really - imagine for one second the beauty, productivity, influence and power if the Israelis and the Palestinians ever came together? OMG WTF would we all do with all of our newly found free time? Oh that's right we could all go back to "Keeping Up with the Kardashians". I'm only speaking of the "dummies" of course:). Be Well Happy Holidays and May Peace of Mind Not Elude You - take care!
If this is what Palestinian liberation looks like, October 7, then there is something rotten at the core of the heart of that movement. They are modern day Nazis. Anyone who supports Hamas is a Nazi
Abby, as a proud member of the pro-Palestinian left, are you aware that Western supporters of Palestine like yourself have on numerous occasions being filmed pulling down posters with pictures of Israelis being held hostage in Gaza? Do you have any insights into why pro-Palestinian people would do something like that?
Sheer anger at the genocide happening right now in Gaza. It's not strategic, it's not antisemitic, it violates free speech principles--it's motivated by anger.
That makes sense. When Palestinians and their supporters get angry, they take that anger out on innocent Israeli civilians including children. Checks out.
So you moved from "it's a lie" to "who gives a shit". Progress is being made.
I think if I was pro-Palestine, I wouldn't want these people illustrating the ugly and dehumanizing side of my movement. I wouldn't want them showing the world how much pro-Palestine people, not just Hamas, hate Jews, including Jewish children. But hey, that's me. You clearly don't seem to mind.
Exactly, Peter. Your precious pro-Palestinian movement just gave radical Muslims worldwide the green light to slaughter and rape Americans, especially American Jews. Well done. Are you proud of yourself?
We who support freedom and justice for all have not given anyone a green light to take away freedom and commit injustice. It is the US and its allies in Europe that have been giving Israel a green light to oppress Palestinians that has resulted in this mutual tragedy. And, FYI, as horrible as the Hamas invasion of Israel was, it is not continuing. But the genocide of the Palestinians is continuing, and everyone of conscience should be advocating for it to stop. Bring the hostages home and stop the bombing of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon. After my Palestine solidarity rally I went across the street to the people with the Israeli flag, shook their hands, and told them of my sorrow for everyone who is suffering. They softened and we had a moment of human connection. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Gandhi
Sorry, I’m having trouble hearing your litany of propaganda talking points over the screams of “there is only one solution,” “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free,” and “gas the Jews.”
By the way, accusing American Jews of being complicit in a nonexistent genocide is further encouraging violence against them. There is blood on your hands too, Lois.
I never said any of those things. Everything i actually said has been verified over and over again by endless news media.You are reading through a filter of your own narrow point of view. And, like Peter Beinart, I am Jewish. Since the US government is using my meager tax dollars to fund Israeli attacks on Palestine, I guess I do have a bit of blood on my hands. but it is not of my own choosing.
Why would it matter that you personally have never chanted “gas the Jews,” when thousands of people in your movement have? You’re not as important as you think you are. Nor is it relevant that you are Jewish, your movement remains anti semitic.
And by the way, endless news media is by no means asserting there is an “ongoing genocide” of Palestinians. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Please name half a dozen people in my "Movement" who has said "Gas the Jews." It is very likely some white supremacists have said that. And, news media are reporting 5,000 Gazans killed by Israeli bombing as of a few days ago. Thousands more warned to flee their homes, which are being destroyed by Israeli bombing. Israel refusing to allow shipments of fuel into Gaza, which means thousands more will die in hospitals without adequate treatment. By international definition this is genocide, as well as ethnic cleansing. The definition of genocide was created by a Jewish attorney following the genocide of Jews in Europe. It applies here,as well. So, what is your source for the "thousands of people" who have chanted ,"Gas the Jews"? And, what, exactly, are you defining as my "Movement"? I warn you, I read, and write, widely. I do not make up my facts. Nobody in their right mind would be ashamed of wanting their fellow human beings to be safe and free. The Israelis will never be safe and free until they stop oppressing the Palestinians. People will always fight back. It is human nature. Unfortunately human beings can get pretty ugly when their backs are up against the wall.
No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
As an American, you’ll have to forgive me if that sounds a lot like how invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam Hussein was cynically sold to the public as a matter of benevolence and empowerment to the Iraqi people to spread democracy.
War planners, we later learned, had no such intent or realistic plans to achieve it and the nation was plunged into civil war and regional instability that left a half-million dead.
Paul, do you think Hamas has the Palestinian people it is ruling over's best interest? Polls, while difficult to administer for fear of being caught by Hamas, indicate that the people feel like prisoners.
No, but neither would a long invasion and war tasked to “destroy” Hamas, which is as much of a nebulous ideology of Islamist resistance as it is an organization with a distinct and finite list of members.
What I find especially interesting in this response is that I never mentioned anything about American Jews, or any other kind of Jews. That appears to have come out of Mr. Anonymous' imagination.
No, I saw the videos of the DSA and their fellow far leftists celebrating Hamas’ actions. They speak much louder than Peter’s cringing apologist weaseling.
Perhaps, but if that’s the case he should have said that at the time, not three and a half weeks and four articles later. Peters silence and moral cowardice then speaks volumes now. He has lost whatever legitimacy he once had on both sides of the fence. And it couldn’t be more deserved.
Sorry kid, the only people who are happy to see human beings killed are Palestine and their sycophants on the far left. No amount of whataboutism will change that. Own it.
The lives of colonizer people are also precious, I agree, but there is a disanalogy between non-indigenous Americans and Israelis, namely that Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocide is ongoing, whereas the US' is not. Palestinians are currently a subjugated people, in a way that indigenous Americans are not.
It’s very easy to give full rights (which is not what Native Americans have) once you’ve decimated the population to a point they’re insignificant in any electoral way. The reason Palestinians and Israelis have any conflict is exactly because there was no genocide of Palestinians and they are numerically significant. Don’t act like you’re morally superior being in a country that reduced the native population so much what they think and do doesn’t affect anything. You’re the one who needs to deal with an immoral genocide, not Israelis.
Aren't native Americans citizens of the US, with all the rights of citizens? The US defines itself as a state of all its citizens.
What land are you referring to that's being taken away from them? Don't they have access to the general land of the USA? I mean do they have less rights to purchase land than non-native American people?
I'm not an American and don't know the details of this, but I thought that native Americans were formally equal to everyone else, but like black people etc. were facing civil rights violations (such as police brutality). That can be dealt with by civil rights activism. I do know, despite not being American, that they are not subjected to anything in the vicinity of what Palestinians are being subjected to by a fascist state of which they're not even citizens in most cases.
No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
What's to prevent Hamas etc. from winning an election in a binational Israel/Palestine. Whatever that something is, we have to find it and nurture it, because it's the region's only hope.
My intuition is a coalition of secular and moderate Israelis and Palestinians coming together to create a new country. Nothing happens without real collaboration between our peoples.
They don’t. But as a previous poster said, we do have a responsibility to understand our history in the US and to make sincere amends to Native Americans.
And, BTW, thank you for your newsletter and other writings. I look to you to help me try to stay afloat on these issues. I am woefully ignorant, of many things. I have Jewish friends whom I love dearly and they are in terrible pain. And, at the same time, I hate to see anyone suffer.
Did ending apartheid in South Africa mean the white people in South Africa didn't have the right to life? Of course not. Ending apartheid in Israel does not call for people to die. On the contrary, it calls for people to be able to live freely. How is that even remotely threatening a people's life?
I appreciate all that you are saying here. It's an interesting idea I'm trying to get my head around. Of course I don't want anyone including Israeli Jews including zionists to be harmed, but it is hard to consider their pain when I think about the past 75+ years of Palestinian pain and erasure and the world's refusal to see/hear any of that. And yet, it is a strategy you are proposing to ask Hamas to take the higher road (once again) since Israel has gone so low most people, even zionists can't look away. And yet I don't think it will make any difference to the state of Israel and their mission which is clear as day and needs no excuse in their eyes. They are proud of what they do. I have never seen hubris on the level of the state of Israel. This escalation was set to happen even without Hamas's actions which are small in comparison. So it's about optics, what the world sees as it is finally watching. And then maybe if Hamas were to act this way, the world would know for sure who the monsters are and where the "pure evil" lies. Thank you for your brave idea.
Israel has never "gone so low" as what Hamas did on 10/7. But thank you for making it clear Israelis are "the monsters". This kind of dehumanization is exactly what Peter is talking about.
Emma, perhaps I am out-of-line, but can I ask how a person feels any attachment to land occupied by one's great-grandfather? My parents both grew up on small farms and these are homes that were abandoned when small farming went away. The house where my father lived as a child burned down when I was a child and I remember very distinctly that he was moved nearly to tears as we visited but did he wish to rebuild what was reallly not much more than a log cabin? No. While I felt bad for my Dad I literally felt no attachment to the home/property. What I am saying is that I think humans move on. There is no 75 years of pain in my opinion and if I'm hoping you can explain to me how one forms an attachment to a home left in 1948 or 1967?
While I myself have no attachment to any land - I am a Jew of the Diaspora, raised in Philadelphia in lots of chaos and trauma - I can imagine (and you can hear it in my play, available as a podcast available here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/abrahams-daughters-by-emma-goldman-sherman/id1329778196?i=1000462709862 that anyone whose family story is forced migration will have the inherited attachment along with the inherited trauma. I don't think the question is who has an attachment to the land. Clearly many people do. The point is that like the Native Americans, the indigenous people were forced out in great numbers and have been trying to re-establish themselves on the land of Palestine (you may call it Israel, I call it Palestine) for 75+ years now since the Nakba. I have listened to the stories of many Palestinians in person in Gaza, Ramallah, Nablus, and other parts of Palestine, and I was always astounded by their humanity, their ability not to hate, to seek amicable solutions. It is not in my nature to be as kind or compassionate, although it is my task to continue to work toward that kind of compassion. I am sure that if they could move on, they would. But I also ask, if the people we now refer to as Israelis were ever interested in true peace with their neighbors/those inhabiting the land of Palestine when the Brits "gave" the land to the zionists, why didn't they work toward peace? Why didn't they work toward healing from trauma? I have worked for years to heal my trauma(s), and I know that healing is possible. The State of Israel has every possible means at their disposal for healing, and yet they have consistently chosen to create oppression, pain and suffering as a method of insuring their safety - to me, that is what makes no sense. And endangers so many, both Jews and Palestinians alike.
Appreciate your perspective. It baffles me why Jews and Arab Palestinians cannot live in peace but from a historical perspective, I just cannot say I think the Palestinians have been treated terribly and by historical standards they've been treated positively well, although admittedly as 2nd class citizens which is offensive to me. I've never been to the Middle East but have lived in areas where Native Americans lived and were a material portion of the population (northwest MN, Manitoba and NW Ontario). I never felt any hate but there; they went to the same grocery stores, schools, played hockey, etc. but they did live separately too, of their own volition, except those who married outside of the tribe. I knew people who grew up with them and got along well with them but I did not have enough interaction to know them well so I have no real insights other than their situation was not any worse than other working-class people where I lived. My wife who is originally from Puerto Rico but grew up in the Midwest got asked if she was Native American sometimes and it bothered her as she thought there was some sense of being treated differently. I'm a white American male who has a hard time relating to it as treating someone based on the color of their skin just strikes me as oh so silly, but I know it is still exists at least to an extent even in the US.
Jeff, you and your parents weren't indoctrinated since birth to believe that a great injustice was done to you and your nation and everything bad in your life is the fault of the Jews. See things from a Palestinian perspective. It's brainwashing to the point where they can cheer mass murder and the butchering of babies in their cradles.
I don't think I've ever known any Palestinians to cheer mass murder or butchering of babies in their cradles - they are among the most compassionate people I know. I have sat in their homes where they have held the shells of the tear gas they have been forced to breathe with Made in Pittsburgh stamped into the canisters and spoken of peace, peace and more peace, seeing clearly the work of the zionist project as a system and not any individuals, speaking of their own martyrs simultaneously with the same dreams of peace I had until then only attributed to saints. I was the only Jew in the room - they were not always aware I was there. It is only the Israelis I have heard spewing hatred which I attribute to their indoctrination of fear from their history, the frequent trips to Germany to see the concentration camps, the free birthright trips that insist on keeping the history of trauma alive and thriving in the minds of all Jews. This is the only brainwashing I have seen, and I've been watching for a long time. I'm 58. My father started to build settlement homes in the early 70s. I hope they all come down soon. I want the zionist project dismantled river to sea. I am not ashamed to say that it is wrong, morally wrong, and does not deserve to exist the way it does and has for 75+years. And that doesn't mean I want bloodshed. I want new government systems. I want peaceful solutions. I want an end to violence and that includes the violence of starvation and the ghettoizing of the Palestinians. Forever. For a true and lasting peace.
Here's what the Palestinian leaders have refused to do for 75 years, rejecting every opportunity for peace:
1) recognize Israel's right to exist
2) accept having their own country next to Israel
3) acknowledge that the "right of return" of millions of descendants of refugees will be to a new state of Palestine, and not to Israel.
There would have been peace long ago, and still could be, if these 3 basics were met. So why won't the Palestinians? Because their leadership is corrupt. Ever wonder why in this incredible oil-rich part of the world, no Muslim countries few give any aid? Because they know it isn't used to help citizens, it's used for the corrupt leaders and to build weapons.
How awful that you, a Jew who apparently helps people suffering from PTSD, are so blinded that you side with Hamas and the PA who have kept their people in this state for 75 years -- rejecting every opportunity for peace with Israel, launching murderous terror attacks against civilians, and now this butchery on October 7 that even Israeli Arabs are condemning (but not you). No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
Peter, what's your red line? How far do Palestinians have to go before you stop supporting them? Because if celebrating mass murder isn't far enough, I'd really like to know what is.
I'm happy to answer. My red line for Israel is that if the Israeli government ever started intentionally targeting civilians and proudly bragging it, the way Palestine does, and if a majority of the Israeli population actively supported the intentional targeting of civilians, I would stop supporting Israel. Intentional targeting of civilians is a red line for me. Obviously it's not one for Peter and the rest. What's your red line vis Palestine?
Oh, cool, well that's happening. On Oct. 10, IDF spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari told the press that, in the Gaza airstrikes, “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy.” President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza because “it is an entire nation out there that is responsible." Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.” In Tel Aviv, someone hung a professionally printed banner reading “Zero Gazans” from a pedestrian bridge. So we're past your red line.
I'm not sure exactly where my red line is on either, but I do know that the mass murder and torture of civilians is well past it. So Israel, Hamas and PIJ have long since crossed the "red line" for me.
You have a strange understanding of intent if you are genuinely looking at Israel’s response and you don’t see that your red line was crossed long ago in this conflict.
As a rule, do you accept the justifications of powerful states at face value? The answer is probably yes, but there is a further complication if so, because Israel’s top leaders have openly said they are not restraining themselves by avoiding civilian deaths. Widely reported in the J Post.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm asking him how far the Palestinians and their supporters have to go before he stops supporting them. What his red line is. Maybe you can answer the question. What's your red line for Palestinians?
How many Jews would Palestinians have to massacre for you to stop supporting them? 1400 isn't enough, obviously, so 2000? 5000? A million? How many, Nathan?
I understand the impulse behind this idea. As an Arab-American, I always understood that the call for a ceasefire has a clear practical consideration - allowing for the release of captives. It’s hard to imagine how captives could be released on a large scale, if the bombs are still dropping. If I was a public figure I would join such a call. Right now, the most immediate consideration before our community is fighting the racism and dehumanization that makes this massacre in Gaza possible, and threatens our lives here in America
You are proving my point about racism, as if this conflict started in 10/7 out of the blue. Gaza is a refugee camp with three quarters of its population made up of refugees ethnically cleansed from southern Israel in 1948, and barred from returning home because they committed the crime of not being Jews. Gaza has been under Israeli occupation since 1967, and has been under ever tightening Israeli blockade since the early 1990’s. But if you ignore all of that, along 5 wars in the last 15 years, then of course, only Jewish victims matter.
We have tried the violent and unjust way of dealing with the Palestinians for decades and, surprise, it hasn’t worked. Clearly moral considerations are irrelevant, particularly when involving Muslim peoples. But it’s sheer stupidity to repeat this same violent path and expect a different outcome. The only way out is to end Israel’s violent apartheid rule of the Palestinians.
Of course I am. If you don't like Hamas massacring babies, you're a racist. Welcome to the pro-Palestinian left.
I have no interest in recapping the entire Arab-Israeli conflict in the space of this comments section. If you think 10/7 is justified because of the Gaza blockade, just say so.
I agree, the only way out is to end Israel's rule of the Palestinians. And the only way to do THAT is for the Palestinians to give up their 70+ year quest to destroy Israel and take over all of Palestine for themselves "from the river to the sea." As long as the Palestinians keep fighting this unwinnable fight, or as you phrased it, repeat the same violent path, they're going to get the same outcome.
The Palestinians needs to give up the fight to destroy Israel and accept its existence. Agreed?
FYI: All of Palestine used to be Palestinian, until the UN "gave" 55 percent to the Zionists who came from Europe. Check out a pre-1948 map. Do you see any Israel there? How would you feel if somebody took over your home, your farm, your village, your neighborhood?
Abby, it seems to me we should be able to hold the idea that civilians are the beneficiaries of, and often complicit in, terrible injustice, and also that their lives are precious and they should not be harmed. You mentioned white US settlers in the 19th century but what about today. If Israeli Jewish civilians don't have the right to life because they're living on stolen land, then why do Americans?
Too late, Peter. You and yours have made it clear Israelis are colonizers, apartheid racists, genocidal Nazis, and the rest, and have for decades stumped for people who murdered Israeli civilians with just as much glee and joy as they did on 10/7. To start to stop the boulder in motion now is much too little, much too late. What, you didn't think your fellow travelers meant it when they said "my heroes have always killed colonizers"?
And your fellow travelers are out there yelling Mut li-Aravim and pulling off West Bank shooting attacks.
See? I can do meaningless guilt by association snipes too!
Nice try with the whataboutery, but the topic of discussion is the pro-Palestinian left. Peter is willing to admit about the rot in the heart of the movement. Are you?
No shit I do, I'm not even a part of that moronic and self-defeating coterie. I have a pretty idiosyncratic position on the conflict. You on the other hand engage in temper tantrums to avoid dealing with the fact that the side you root for has a Kahanist national security minister and its own murderous terror gangs.
Fantastic, I'm glad we agree that large portions of the pro-Palestinian left have deeply entrenched beliefs of hatred and dehumanization of Israelis to the point where they are celebrating and cheering the unspeakable atrocities committed by Hamas on 10/7.
As for "the side I root for", I'm not sure what you're referring to. You don't have to be pro-Israel or pro-Israeli government to recognize the hateful face of the pro-Palestinian left. You just have to be intellectually honest.
Quiet, Nathan. The adults are talking.
Not exactly idiot. These Hamas depravities did not occur in the West Bank. No moral equivalence here. I bet you don’t believe that babies were beheaded or maybe just a few.
Maybe we'd have an answer if the IDF hadn't pointedly refused to investigate?
You eat the dead, what more proof so you need you pro Hamas ghoul?
I can read the alphabet but don't understand the vowels, I interpolate from other Semitic languages. And I know it's most famous from La Familia and company.
Yes yes Peter is complicit in many ways in the delegitimization of Israel. Is he an idiot? Or evil?
You make me laugh.
Thanks Peter. Perhaps what fits my view best is the belief that no one deserves to be killed, AND that those of us living on colonized land have the responsibility to understand our histories and take action to correct injustices that result from that history.
If you believe no one deserves to be killed, will you disavow the pro Palestinian national movement which definitely does not believe that?
To the contrary, a revitalized political movement for a Palestinian homeland is more essential now than ever. The problem isn’t Palestinian national liberation, it’s the means and goals in achieving it.
This horrible tragic moment has at least clarified a few thing. Just as it showed a split between an older humane western left and the younger less liberal, more ideological left, it also exposes many who long claimed to have supported a 2SS but in reality had sought to destroy it.
I’m sorry Paul, are you agreeing with me the pro Palestinian national movement does think certain people deserve to be killed? If not, can you say something pertinent to the topic?
Well, Hamas, PIJ, and other militant groups obviously think so and they are part of the Palestinian national liberation movement, so yes, I agree in that sense.
But I read your framing as having the intent to wave the bloody shirt not to humanize their victims—a laudable act that I would join you in doing— but rather to rally the cause of delegitimizing the whole idea of a movement for a Palestinian homeland, which was your exact position before 10/7. That reading strikes me as cynical and opportunistic on your part.
I would disagree with you that that is the goal of the Palestinian national liberation movement. I would argue the goal of the movement is to repeat 10/7 over and over again until all Israelis are dead, expelled, or otherwise oppressed. And the behavior of its members over the past three weeks would back up my argument more than yours. Yes?
I've never really seen a movement for a Palestinian homeland, unless you mean all of Mandatory Palestine. Palestinians correctly believe that all of it is their homeland.
I mean it as an umbrella term for all political aspirations for a future state of Palestine.
If you'll disavor the Israeli govermnet which also doesn't believe it.
Sounds great. You go first.
HI!
"No one deserves to be killed" is a broad blanket statement we ( as humans who were raised properly) believe or say when we are talking about collateral damage. Not literally - it is rational to suspect and support some planned deaths which can be justified (the execution of a serial killer or child molester rather than wasting "rehab resources" in them for example). May I propose if we all try to find some good in everyone we can make better choices about who gets to lead and who should perhaps follow - (why allow the dummies to be in front to lead us off the cliff) or maybe have them in front to "get it" first ahahaha.
I laugh to keep from crying about all the disgusting ways people try to hurt each other. Pathetic really - imagine for one second the beauty, productivity, influence and power if the Israelis and the Palestinians ever came together? OMG WTF would we all do with all of our newly found free time? Oh that's right we could all go back to "Keeping Up with the Kardashians". I'm only speaking of the "dummies" of course:). Be Well Happy Holidays and May Peace of Mind Not Elude You - take care!
If this is what Palestinian liberation looks like, October 7, then there is something rotten at the core of the heart of that movement. They are modern day Nazis. Anyone who supports Hamas is a Nazi
Abby, as a proud member of the pro-Palestinian left, are you aware that Western supporters of Palestine like yourself have on numerous occasions being filmed pulling down posters with pictures of Israelis being held hostage in Gaza? Do you have any insights into why pro-Palestinian people would do something like that?
Sheer anger at the genocide happening right now in Gaza. It's not strategic, it's not antisemitic, it violates free speech principles--it's motivated by anger.
That makes sense. When Palestinians and their supporters get angry, they take that anger out on innocent Israeli civilians including children. Checks out.
Nathan, anything to say about the video evidence of people pulling down posters? An apology, perhaps?
So you moved from "it's a lie" to "who gives a shit". Progress is being made.
I think if I was pro-Palestine, I wouldn't want these people illustrating the ugly and dehumanizing side of my movement. I wouldn't want them showing the world how much pro-Palestine people, not just Hamas, hate Jews, including Jewish children. But hey, that's me. You clearly don't seem to mind.
Too much video evidence of it to dispute, I'm afraid.
https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/videos-of-people-tearing-down-posters-of-kidnapped-israelis-spark-outrage-in-south-florida/3138521/
Exactly, Peter. Your precious pro-Palestinian movement just gave radical Muslims worldwide the green light to slaughter and rape Americans, especially American Jews. Well done. Are you proud of yourself?
We who support freedom and justice for all have not given anyone a green light to take away freedom and commit injustice. It is the US and its allies in Europe that have been giving Israel a green light to oppress Palestinians that has resulted in this mutual tragedy. And, FYI, as horrible as the Hamas invasion of Israel was, it is not continuing. But the genocide of the Palestinians is continuing, and everyone of conscience should be advocating for it to stop. Bring the hostages home and stop the bombing of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon. After my Palestine solidarity rally I went across the street to the people with the Israeli flag, shook their hands, and told them of my sorrow for everyone who is suffering. They softened and we had a moment of human connection. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Gandhi
Sorry, I’m having trouble hearing your litany of propaganda talking points over the screams of “there is only one solution,” “from the river to the sea Palestine will be free,” and “gas the Jews.”
By the way, accusing American Jews of being complicit in a nonexistent genocide is further encouraging violence against them. There is blood on your hands too, Lois.
I never said any of those things. Everything i actually said has been verified over and over again by endless news media.You are reading through a filter of your own narrow point of view. And, like Peter Beinart, I am Jewish. Since the US government is using my meager tax dollars to fund Israeli attacks on Palestine, I guess I do have a bit of blood on my hands. but it is not of my own choosing.
Why would it matter that you personally have never chanted “gas the Jews,” when thousands of people in your movement have? You’re not as important as you think you are. Nor is it relevant that you are Jewish, your movement remains anti semitic.
And by the way, endless news media is by no means asserting there is an “ongoing genocide” of Palestinians. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Please name half a dozen people in my "Movement" who has said "Gas the Jews." It is very likely some white supremacists have said that. And, news media are reporting 5,000 Gazans killed by Israeli bombing as of a few days ago. Thousands more warned to flee their homes, which are being destroyed by Israeli bombing. Israel refusing to allow shipments of fuel into Gaza, which means thousands more will die in hospitals without adequate treatment. By international definition this is genocide, as well as ethnic cleansing. The definition of genocide was created by a Jewish attorney following the genocide of Jews in Europe. It applies here,as well. So, what is your source for the "thousands of people" who have chanted ,"Gas the Jews"? And, what, exactly, are you defining as my "Movement"? I warn you, I read, and write, widely. I do not make up my facts. Nobody in their right mind would be ashamed of wanting their fellow human beings to be safe and free. The Israelis will never be safe and free until they stop oppressing the Palestinians. People will always fight back. It is human nature. Unfortunately human beings can get pretty ugly when their backs are up against the wall.
No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
As an American, you’ll have to forgive me if that sounds a lot like how invading Iraq and overthrowing Saddam Hussein was cynically sold to the public as a matter of benevolence and empowerment to the Iraqi people to spread democracy.
War planners, we later learned, had no such intent or realistic plans to achieve it and the nation was plunged into civil war and regional instability that left a half-million dead.
One suspects Gazas fate will be similar.
Paul, do you think Hamas has the Palestinian people it is ruling over's best interest? Polls, while difficult to administer for fear of being caught by Hamas, indicate that the people feel like prisoners.
No, but neither would a long invasion and war tasked to “destroy” Hamas, which is as much of a nebulous ideology of Islamist resistance as it is an organization with a distinct and finite list of members.
What I find especially interesting in this response is that I never mentioned anything about American Jews, or any other kind of Jews. That appears to have come out of Mr. Anonymous' imagination.
‘We who support freedom and Justice’. Ha ha ha.
Agree with this 100%.
You must have been listening to a different video.
No, I saw the videos of the DSA and their fellow far leftists celebrating Hamas’ actions. They speak much louder than Peter’s cringing apologist weaseling.
I saw them, too. I think he's asking for others to stand up and say it's not ok.
Perhaps, but if that’s the case he should have said that at the time, not three and a half weeks and four articles later. Peters silence and moral cowardice then speaks volumes now. He has lost whatever legitimacy he once had on both sides of the fence. And it couldn’t be more deserved.
Sorry kid, the only people who are happy to see human beings killed are Palestine and their sycophants on the far left. No amount of whataboutism will change that. Own it.
How?
The lives of colonizer people are also precious, I agree, but there is a disanalogy between non-indigenous Americans and Israelis, namely that Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocide is ongoing, whereas the US' is not. Palestinians are currently a subjugated people, in a way that indigenous Americans are not.
Indigenous Americans are absolutely an ongoing subjugated people.
Not in any legal or formal sense AFAIK.
They are certainly not subjected to anything like the conditions Palestinians are.
Btw I consider your comment obstructionist, even if it's driven by genuine concern for native Americans (which it may not be).
It’s very easy to give full rights (which is not what Native Americans have) once you’ve decimated the population to a point they’re insignificant in any electoral way. The reason Palestinians and Israelis have any conflict is exactly because there was no genocide of Palestinians and they are numerically significant. Don’t act like you’re morally superior being in a country that reduced the native population so much what they think and do doesn’t affect anything. You’re the one who needs to deal with an immoral genocide, not Israelis.
Aren't native Americans citizens of the US, with all the rights of citizens? The US defines itself as a state of all its citizens.
What land are you referring to that's being taken away from them? Don't they have access to the general land of the USA? I mean do they have less rights to purchase land than non-native American people?
I'm not an American and don't know the details of this, but I thought that native Americans were formally equal to everyone else, but like black people etc. were facing civil rights violations (such as police brutality). That can be dealt with by civil rights activism. I do know, despite not being American, that they are not subjected to anything in the vicinity of what Palestinians are being subjected to by a fascist state of which they're not even citizens in most cases.
Native Americans are equal under the law, but live under the tyranny of a non-Native American majority.
"Israel's ethnic cleansing and genocide is ongoing"? So civilians are to answer for the actions of their government?
Hamas is being targeted for their war crimes, not civilians. That’s Gaza
Indeed. One incremental step at a time, the Nakba moves relentlessy forward.
In your Nazi dreams
Blah blah blah
No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
Peter, in your emotional distress, you are focusing on fragments of the mosaic, not the big picture.
What's to prevent Hamas etc. from winning an election in a binational Israel/Palestine. Whatever that something is, we have to find it and nurture it, because it's the region's only hope.
My intuition is a coalition of secular and moderate Israelis and Palestinians coming together to create a new country. Nothing happens without real collaboration between our peoples.
What stolen land did Hamas invade on October 7? Wtf Peter? You’re sick. Morally mentally I’ll.
Stolen land? Wtf.
They don’t. But as a previous poster said, we do have a responsibility to understand our history in the US and to make sincere amends to Native Americans.
And, BTW, thank you for your newsletter and other writings. I look to you to help me try to stay afloat on these issues. I am woefully ignorant, of many things. I have Jewish friends whom I love dearly and they are in terrible pain. And, at the same time, I hate to see anyone suffer.
Did ending apartheid in South Africa mean the white people in South Africa didn't have the right to life? Of course not. Ending apartheid in Israel does not call for people to die. On the contrary, it calls for people to be able to live freely. How is that even remotely threatening a people's life?
I appreciate all that you are saying here. It's an interesting idea I'm trying to get my head around. Of course I don't want anyone including Israeli Jews including zionists to be harmed, but it is hard to consider their pain when I think about the past 75+ years of Palestinian pain and erasure and the world's refusal to see/hear any of that. And yet, it is a strategy you are proposing to ask Hamas to take the higher road (once again) since Israel has gone so low most people, even zionists can't look away. And yet I don't think it will make any difference to the state of Israel and their mission which is clear as day and needs no excuse in their eyes. They are proud of what they do. I have never seen hubris on the level of the state of Israel. This escalation was set to happen even without Hamas's actions which are small in comparison. So it's about optics, what the world sees as it is finally watching. And then maybe if Hamas were to act this way, the world would know for sure who the monsters are and where the "pure evil" lies. Thank you for your brave idea.
Israel has never "gone so low" as what Hamas did on 10/7. But thank you for making it clear Israelis are "the monsters". This kind of dehumanization is exactly what Peter is talking about.
Israeli soldiers have gang raped children? Got a link?
Here you go https://www.haaretz.com/2003-10-29/ty-article/i-saw-fit-to-remove-her-from-the-world/0000017f-db62-d856-a37f-ffe2fa5b0000
Anything more recent than 1949?
No response then? Didn't think so.
Emma, perhaps I am out-of-line, but can I ask how a person feels any attachment to land occupied by one's great-grandfather? My parents both grew up on small farms and these are homes that were abandoned when small farming went away. The house where my father lived as a child burned down when I was a child and I remember very distinctly that he was moved nearly to tears as we visited but did he wish to rebuild what was reallly not much more than a log cabin? No. While I felt bad for my Dad I literally felt no attachment to the home/property. What I am saying is that I think humans move on. There is no 75 years of pain in my opinion and if I'm hoping you can explain to me how one forms an attachment to a home left in 1948 or 1967?
While I myself have no attachment to any land - I am a Jew of the Diaspora, raised in Philadelphia in lots of chaos and trauma - I can imagine (and you can hear it in my play, available as a podcast available here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/abrahams-daughters-by-emma-goldman-sherman/id1329778196?i=1000462709862 that anyone whose family story is forced migration will have the inherited attachment along with the inherited trauma. I don't think the question is who has an attachment to the land. Clearly many people do. The point is that like the Native Americans, the indigenous people were forced out in great numbers and have been trying to re-establish themselves on the land of Palestine (you may call it Israel, I call it Palestine) for 75+ years now since the Nakba. I have listened to the stories of many Palestinians in person in Gaza, Ramallah, Nablus, and other parts of Palestine, and I was always astounded by their humanity, their ability not to hate, to seek amicable solutions. It is not in my nature to be as kind or compassionate, although it is my task to continue to work toward that kind of compassion. I am sure that if they could move on, they would. But I also ask, if the people we now refer to as Israelis were ever interested in true peace with their neighbors/those inhabiting the land of Palestine when the Brits "gave" the land to the zionists, why didn't they work toward peace? Why didn't they work toward healing from trauma? I have worked for years to heal my trauma(s), and I know that healing is possible. The State of Israel has every possible means at their disposal for healing, and yet they have consistently chosen to create oppression, pain and suffering as a method of insuring their safety - to me, that is what makes no sense. And endangers so many, both Jews and Palestinians alike.
Appreciate your perspective. It baffles me why Jews and Arab Palestinians cannot live in peace but from a historical perspective, I just cannot say I think the Palestinians have been treated terribly and by historical standards they've been treated positively well, although admittedly as 2nd class citizens which is offensive to me. I've never been to the Middle East but have lived in areas where Native Americans lived and were a material portion of the population (northwest MN, Manitoba and NW Ontario). I never felt any hate but there; they went to the same grocery stores, schools, played hockey, etc. but they did live separately too, of their own volition, except those who married outside of the tribe. I knew people who grew up with them and got along well with them but I did not have enough interaction to know them well so I have no real insights other than their situation was not any worse than other working-class people where I lived. My wife who is originally from Puerto Rico but grew up in the Midwest got asked if she was Native American sometimes and it bothered her as she thought there was some sense of being treated differently. I'm a white American male who has a hard time relating to it as treating someone based on the color of their skin just strikes me as oh so silly, but I know it is still exists at least to an extent even in the US.
Jeff, you and your parents weren't indoctrinated since birth to believe that a great injustice was done to you and your nation and everything bad in your life is the fault of the Jews. See things from a Palestinian perspective. It's brainwashing to the point where they can cheer mass murder and the butchering of babies in their cradles.
I don't think I've ever known any Palestinians to cheer mass murder or butchering of babies in their cradles - they are among the most compassionate people I know. I have sat in their homes where they have held the shells of the tear gas they have been forced to breathe with Made in Pittsburgh stamped into the canisters and spoken of peace, peace and more peace, seeing clearly the work of the zionist project as a system and not any individuals, speaking of their own martyrs simultaneously with the same dreams of peace I had until then only attributed to saints. I was the only Jew in the room - they were not always aware I was there. It is only the Israelis I have heard spewing hatred which I attribute to their indoctrination of fear from their history, the frequent trips to Germany to see the concentration camps, the free birthright trips that insist on keeping the history of trauma alive and thriving in the minds of all Jews. This is the only brainwashing I have seen, and I've been watching for a long time. I'm 58. My father started to build settlement homes in the early 70s. I hope they all come down soon. I want the zionist project dismantled river to sea. I am not ashamed to say that it is wrong, morally wrong, and does not deserve to exist the way it does and has for 75+years. And that doesn't mean I want bloodshed. I want new government systems. I want peaceful solutions. I want an end to violence and that includes the violence of starvation and the ghettoizing of the Palestinians. Forever. For a true and lasting peace.
You've never known any Palestinians to cheer mass murder? Then you haven't been paying attention to the news much recently, have you?
I've been reading your nonsensecal replies. You're either a dolt, or a propaganda tool for Hamas.
Here's what the Palestinian leaders have refused to do for 75 years, rejecting every opportunity for peace:
1) recognize Israel's right to exist
2) accept having their own country next to Israel
3) acknowledge that the "right of return" of millions of descendants of refugees will be to a new state of Palestine, and not to Israel.
There would have been peace long ago, and still could be, if these 3 basics were met. So why won't the Palestinians? Because their leadership is corrupt. Ever wonder why in this incredible oil-rich part of the world, no Muslim countries few give any aid? Because they know it isn't used to help citizens, it's used for the corrupt leaders and to build weapons.
And this is who you support?
This is a horrible comment.
That's more horrible than your comments about how slaughtering children is "morally gray"? I don't think so.
How awful that you, a Jew who apparently helps people suffering from PTSD, are so blinded that you side with Hamas and the PA who have kept their people in this state for 75 years -- rejecting every opportunity for peace with Israel, launching murderous terror attacks against civilians, and now this butchery on October 7 that even Israeli Arabs are condemning (but not you). No one would be helped more than the Palestinians if Israel destroys Hamas.
The Palestinian people are also held hostage by Hamas. Most of the $1.5 billion of humanitarian aid sent to Gaza has been used by Hamas and kept away from its citizens. People are intentionally kept hungry to sustain their anger. Water pipes into Gaza have been ripped up and turned into missiles to launch at Israeli citizens. The people are told to not leave their apartment buildings that house missile launchers or cover tunnels when Israel warns them ahead of time to leave - so they can be used as human shields. And this is who you support???
you're an idiot -- with nothing useful to say. go away.
Celebrating massacre and kidnapping makes you a real intellectual, you dumb ghoul.
Aren’t you special.
that's a good idea. i'll try
Peter, what's your red line? How far do Palestinians have to go before you stop supporting them? Because if celebrating mass murder isn't far enough, I'd really like to know what is.
Same question for you vis Israel.
I'm happy to answer. My red line for Israel is that if the Israeli government ever started intentionally targeting civilians and proudly bragging it, the way Palestine does, and if a majority of the Israeli population actively supported the intentional targeting of civilians, I would stop supporting Israel. Intentional targeting of civilians is a red line for me. Obviously it's not one for Peter and the rest. What's your red line vis Palestine?
Oh, cool, well that's happening. On Oct. 10, IDF spokesman Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari told the press that, in the Gaza airstrikes, “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy.” President Herzog said there are no innocent civilians in Gaza because “it is an entire nation out there that is responsible." Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.” In Tel Aviv, someone hung a professionally printed banner reading “Zero Gazans” from a pedestrian bridge. So we're past your red line.
If you're interested in my thoughts, I laid them out here yesterday: https://theracket.news/p/out-of-zionism
It's not happening, but we can discuss that further once you answer my question. Can you quote the relevant section, please?
I'm not sure exactly where my red line is on either, but I do know that the mass murder and torture of civilians is well past it. So Israel, Hamas and PIJ have long since crossed the "red line" for me.
You have a strange understanding of intent if you are genuinely looking at Israel’s response and you don’t see that your red line was crossed long ago in this conflict.
I recognize Israel's intent is to destroy Hamas, not kill civilians.
As a rule, do you accept the justifications of powerful states at face value? The answer is probably yes, but there is a further complication if so, because Israel’s top leaders have openly said they are not restraining themselves by avoiding civilian deaths. Widely reported in the J Post.
He supports Palestinian human rights, not mass murder you cretin.
Yes, I'm aware of that. I'm asking him how far the Palestinians and their supporters have to go before he stops supporting them. What his red line is. Maybe you can answer the question. What's your red line for Palestinians?
can you differentiate the Palestinians from Hamas?
Yes, you can, the same way you can differentiate the Israeli people from the Israeli government.
How many Jews would Palestinians have to massacre for you to stop supporting them? 1400 isn't enough, obviously, so 2000? 5000? A million? How many, Nathan?
Nope he led the way to mass murder.
I understand the impulse behind this idea. As an Arab-American, I always understood that the call for a ceasefire has a clear practical consideration - allowing for the release of captives. It’s hard to imagine how captives could be released on a large scale, if the bombs are still dropping. If I was a public figure I would join such a call. Right now, the most immediate consideration before our community is fighting the racism and dehumanization that makes this massacre in Gaza possible, and threatens our lives here in America
Most people don't like Hamas slaughtering entire villages full of innocent people. That's not racism, that's pretty basic morality.
You are proving my point about racism, as if this conflict started in 10/7 out of the blue. Gaza is a refugee camp with three quarters of its population made up of refugees ethnically cleansed from southern Israel in 1948, and barred from returning home because they committed the crime of not being Jews. Gaza has been under Israeli occupation since 1967, and has been under ever tightening Israeli blockade since the early 1990’s. But if you ignore all of that, along 5 wars in the last 15 years, then of course, only Jewish victims matter.
We have tried the violent and unjust way of dealing with the Palestinians for decades and, surprise, it hasn’t worked. Clearly moral considerations are irrelevant, particularly when involving Muslim peoples. But it’s sheer stupidity to repeat this same violent path and expect a different outcome. The only way out is to end Israel’s violent apartheid rule of the Palestinians.
Of course I am. If you don't like Hamas massacring babies, you're a racist. Welcome to the pro-Palestinian left.
I have no interest in recapping the entire Arab-Israeli conflict in the space of this comments section. If you think 10/7 is justified because of the Gaza blockade, just say so.
I agree, the only way out is to end Israel's rule of the Palestinians. And the only way to do THAT is for the Palestinians to give up their 70+ year quest to destroy Israel and take over all of Palestine for themselves "from the river to the sea." As long as the Palestinians keep fighting this unwinnable fight, or as you phrased it, repeat the same violent path, they're going to get the same outcome.
The Palestinians needs to give up the fight to destroy Israel and accept its existence. Agreed?
FYI: All of Palestine used to be Palestinian, until the UN "gave" 55 percent to the Zionists who came from Europe. Check out a pre-1948 map. Do you see any Israel there? How would you feel if somebody took over your home, your farm, your village, your neighborhood?