It’s 2032. Russia occupies Ukraine. Moscow has fragmented Ukrainians geographically and legally. Some Ukrainians enjoy citizenship but face structural discrimination. Many lack citizenship and live without free movement under military law. Many others have been expelled and cannot return. Suddenly, over the space of a few days, Ukrainians begin murdering Russian civilians. What would we say?
Appalling article. Peter says he is seeking "not to excuse violence against civilians" but only after paragraphs and paragraphs of justifications, comparing Palestinian violence to the Ukrainian conflict as well as historical examples. Violence against innocent civilians is always wrong. It was wrong when the Irish did it, it was wrong when hypothetical Ukrainians do it, and it's wrong when Palestinians do it. In Peter's rush to defend the murder of Jews, he fails to address the fact that two of the murderers were in fact members of ISIS. I look forward to Peter's next article in which he shows a causation between ISIS's violence and the violence of the oppressive Israeli state. There seems to be no limit to the amount of victim blaming occurring here.
If Palestinians feel so hopeless and powerless that they are compelled to slaughter innocent people, perhaps instead they should get their government to finally make peace with Israel after all of these years. Abbas has failed to make peace with every single Israeli PM for the past several decades, maybe someone new could actually get something done? If Palestine truly "see no other way to answer the violence inflicted on them" (another disgusting defense of Jew murder), then that is a problem on Palestine's end, no one else's.
I do enjoy the references to international law, though, like the claim that Israel's occupation is against international or about "Palestinian efforts to hold Israel accountable under international law." You know what's against international law, Peter? Murdering civilians! Funny how you didn't mention that anywhere.
“ In the meantime, Perhaps most demoralizing of all was the continuing capture and control of the narrative – the “Occupation of the American Mind” — by Israeli hasbara that has mischaracterized the facts on the ground over there for my entire lifetime and resulted in the marginalization and silencing of Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices by the mainstream media, the Israel lobby, the Israeli Ministry of Strategic Affairs and the cacophony of “pro-Israel” supporters who together have made Palestinians out to be terrorists and their Israeli oppressors victims; when in fact, the Israeli state and settler violence arrayed against the Palestinians has always dwarfed that of the resistance. It has been a remarkable feat of propaganda and narrative control to carry out these crimes against humanity and slowly but inexorably Judaicizing the Land” Pretending to be yearning for a two-state solution while deliberately taking steps to kill any prospect of it. The hasbara has seemed as impenetrable as the Apartheid system it supports.”
"Regardless of the length of time, whether it is twenty or fifty or hundred years or until the end of time, whatever the end of time can mean today, Jewish life has been and is now permanently scarred by the occupation of Palestine and Palestinians…. These historical and factual statements amount to a confession that I made in Jerusalem thirty years ago and I make again this evening: “What we as Jews have done to you, the Palestinian people, is wrong. What we as Jews are doing to you, the Palestinian people, is wrong.”
...However one parses our permanent occupation of Palestine and Palestinians, Jewish identity, whether religious, spiritual or secular, is now permanently infected with atrocity."
I was struck by this comment from another article by Marc Ellis.
“ Unfortunately, here in the US no leader speaks the truth about the Israeli/Palestinian issue either. It is the elephant in the room. For a democracy, that is disappointing.
The zionists have successfully linked any truth telling/criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.”
It is time for the world to call that nothing but baloney.
The only people saying "any" criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism are anti-Zionists and their anti-Semitic fellow travelers. If you think Marc Ellis is right about that, do you agree with him that "Jewish identity, whether religious, spiritual or secular, is now permanently infected with atrocity"? I'd honestly love to know your answer.
LOL so you feel you're free to post quotes accusing Israel of crimes against humanity and making sweeping statements about "The Zionists", but when it comes to blatant Jew-hatred, you suddenly have nothing to say and are "not qualified" to even express your own opinion? What a shocking and convenient turn of events.
As someone who is qualified to answer the question, let me tell you that Marc's statement is anti-Semitic in the most obvious way. You are now aware that Mondoweiss is an anti-Semitic hate site home to some vicious Jew haters, and subsequently any links you post from them will be spreading the views of anti-Semites. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. I think you should do some soul searching and research before you return here to post more "criticism of Israel."
Peter says that "Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, like Russia’s invasions of Ukraine, still constitutes a clear violation of international law." He then shares a series of links that fail to back up his claim. The link to the UN, for example, directs to a news report about a ruling concerning Israel's settlements. Another is to a ruling about the West Bank security barrier.
Question: is Peter not very intelligent, or does he merely believe his audience is unable to tell the difference between a settlement and an occupation?
The UN is hardly a good source for unbiased reporting on Israel. The more accurate term is disputed territories in as much that the West Bank was not taken from a prior existing country in a war of choice or aggression. In fact, Israel urged Jordan, not to join the 1967 June war.
That said there is no question that the growing settlements in the West Bank complicate the peace process.
Also that link does not prove her claim that "the settlements are the occupation." Apparently she's just as unintelligent or dishonest as her boy Peter.
You said that neither the un nor human rights groups considered the settlements the occupation, yet hem and haw when presented with proof you’re wrong. Yet the UN says the settlements are the engine f occupation. Also, from Amnesty, https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/. Peter is not my boy and your diminutive condescension doesn’t bolster your claims.
Human dignity is the cornerstone to any sustainable peace. A number of years ago, meeting with Colin Powell's former chief of staff (both at DOD and State) I asked him if he was familiar with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...he knew of it, but did not know it. I gave him a copy and asked if he thought it could be an effective tool. He said he saw one problem, it would be to inexpensive and Congress would never cut out the many jobs derived from the Military Industrial Complex. The more work I've done here in the US and around the world, the clearer it is, when people find their dignity they have an investment in their society doing well. When dignity is stripped from them, they have no reason to support that government or society. If we want peace in the Middle East, in Europe, and even in the USA (which teeters on the verge of greater violence) we should explore deploying the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as foundational to survival. For almost 75 years it has been one of the world's best kept secrets. Now is the time to unleash it's powers.
There is simply no comparison between Israel Russia, Ukraine, Detroit etc. This is not a winning or let us say illuminating approach to Israel/Palestine.
The facts are that over time Palestinians have come to believe they were dispossessed (it's complicated) and that the only solution is repossession (more complicated). Quoting Abbas saying that he wants a Palestinian state without planes and guns and police with only batons is meaningless as it comes from a man who has not faced the ballot box and the reason is simply if he were he would lose to Hamas (which does say something about the Palestinian public). And we know Hamas certainly believe in violence and as you point out they might consider a truce. But who in Israel would consider a truce with Hamas just 10 miles away from Tel Aviv and literally just a fence away from Jerusalem?
There will be a solution to the Arab Israel problem, but it is not going to be a single state encompassing Palestinians and Israelis. It also is not going to be acceptable, and it has never been acceptable to the Palestinians to have the West bank as a state—they have made it clear since 1948, when they had complete control of the West Bank and Arafat rejected it even with the Arab section of the Old City in 2000. Every such solution has been rejected without exception.
I am looking forward to your interview with former PM Olmert. He came the closest until he was unseated by Netanyahu.
Every "solution" offered by Israel over the years has kept Israelis in charge militarily, giving Palestinians an inferior status. Why would any people agree to a deal which would not give them full autonomy and an equal share of the land ?
There are numerous examples of history where wars end with the defeated party not being given full autonomy. Just to give one, Germany after WWII was divided in two and occupied for several years, as well as demilitarized, and that was AFTER the peace treaty was signed. "Inferior status", sure, that's what happens when you lose a war. Why is Palestine special? Why is it the only party to lose a war and still expect to get everything it wants on a silver platter?
Once again the argument seems to me simple. How does the Old Testament or the holocaust justify the negation of 1300 years of history and the takeover of another peoples' land.
Israel was unfairly created from the start and took more land than the UN partition had allocated to it. It was built on a land where thousands of people were already living and destroyed their towns and villages to develop a new country and continues to steal what little land is left from the Palestinians.. There is no comparison with Germany.
Appalling article. Peter says he is seeking "not to excuse violence against civilians" but only after paragraphs and paragraphs of justifications, comparing Palestinian violence to the Ukrainian conflict as well as historical examples. Violence against innocent civilians is always wrong. It was wrong when the Irish did it, it was wrong when hypothetical Ukrainians do it, and it's wrong when Palestinians do it. In Peter's rush to defend the murder of Jews, he fails to address the fact that two of the murderers were in fact members of ISIS. I look forward to Peter's next article in which he shows a causation between ISIS's violence and the violence of the oppressive Israeli state. There seems to be no limit to the amount of victim blaming occurring here.
If Palestinians feel so hopeless and powerless that they are compelled to slaughter innocent people, perhaps instead they should get their government to finally make peace with Israel after all of these years. Abbas has failed to make peace with every single Israeli PM for the past several decades, maybe someone new could actually get something done? If Palestine truly "see no other way to answer the violence inflicted on them" (another disgusting defense of Jew murder), then that is a problem on Palestine's end, no one else's.
I do enjoy the references to international law, though, like the claim that Israel's occupation is against international or about "Palestinian efforts to hold Israel accountable under international law." You know what's against international law, Peter? Murdering civilians! Funny how you didn't mention that anywhere.
“ In the meantime, Perhaps most demoralizing of all was the continuing capture and control of the narrative – the “Occupation of the American Mind” — by Israeli hasbara that has mischaracterized the facts on the ground over there for my entire lifetime and resulted in the marginalization and silencing of Palestinian and anti-Zionist voices by the mainstream media, the Israel lobby, the Israeli Ministry of Strategic Affairs and the cacophony of “pro-Israel” supporters who together have made Palestinians out to be terrorists and their Israeli oppressors victims; when in fact, the Israeli state and settler violence arrayed against the Palestinians has always dwarfed that of the resistance. It has been a remarkable feat of propaganda and narrative control to carry out these crimes against humanity and slowly but inexorably Judaicizing the Land” Pretending to be yearning for a two-state solution while deliberately taking steps to kill any prospect of it. The hasbara has seemed as impenetrable as the Apartheid system it supports.”
Robert Herbst
https://mondoweiss.net/2021/05/lets-have-a-frank-talk-about-israeli-oppression-and-antisemitism/
"Regardless of the length of time, whether it is twenty or fifty or hundred years or until the end of time, whatever the end of time can mean today, Jewish life has been and is now permanently scarred by the occupation of Palestine and Palestinians…. These historical and factual statements amount to a confession that I made in Jerusalem thirty years ago and I make again this evening: “What we as Jews have done to you, the Palestinian people, is wrong. What we as Jews are doing to you, the Palestinian people, is wrong.”
...However one parses our permanent occupation of Palestine and Palestinians, Jewish identity, whether religious, spiritual or secular, is now permanently infected with atrocity."
https://mondoweiss.net/2017/10/occupation-permanent-possible/
Mondoweiss is an anti-Semitic hate site. Read something else.
I was struck by this comment from another article by Marc Ellis.
“ Unfortunately, here in the US no leader speaks the truth about the Israeli/Palestinian issue either. It is the elephant in the room. For a democracy, that is disappointing.
The zionists have successfully linked any truth telling/criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.”
It is time for the world to call that nothing but baloney.
The only people saying "any" criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism are anti-Zionists and their anti-Semitic fellow travelers. If you think Marc Ellis is right about that, do you agree with him that "Jewish identity, whether religious, spiritual or secular, is now permanently infected with atrocity"? I'd honestly love to know your answer.
“ The only people saying "any" criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism are anti-Zionists and their anti-Semitic fellow travelers.”
I don’t agree with that statement.
“Do you agree with him that "Jewish identity, whether religious, spiritual or secular, is now permanently infected with atrocity"?
I’m not qualified to answer that question.
LOL so you feel you're free to post quotes accusing Israel of crimes against humanity and making sweeping statements about "The Zionists", but when it comes to blatant Jew-hatred, you suddenly have nothing to say and are "not qualified" to even express your own opinion? What a shocking and convenient turn of events.
As someone who is qualified to answer the question, let me tell you that Marc's statement is anti-Semitic in the most obvious way. You are now aware that Mondoweiss is an anti-Semitic hate site home to some vicious Jew haters, and subsequently any links you post from them will be spreading the views of anti-Semites. Ignorance is no longer an excuse. I think you should do some soul searching and research before you return here to post more "criticism of Israel."
Peter says that "Israel’s occupation of the West Bank, like Russia’s invasions of Ukraine, still constitutes a clear violation of international law." He then shares a series of links that fail to back up his claim. The link to the UN, for example, directs to a news report about a ruling concerning Israel's settlements. Another is to a ruling about the West Bank security barrier.
Question: is Peter not very intelligent, or does he merely believe his audience is unable to tell the difference between a settlement and an occupation?
Interesting that you can’t see that the settlements are the occupation.
According to whom? Not the UN. Not human rights groups. Not the government of Israel. Face it sweetie, your boy made a boo boo.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2021/11/1104792
The UN is hardly a good source for unbiased reporting on Israel. The more accurate term is disputed territories in as much that the West Bank was not taken from a prior existing country in a war of choice or aggression. In fact, Israel urged Jordan, not to join the 1967 June war.
That said there is no question that the growing settlements in the West Bank complicate the peace process.
Also that link does not prove her claim that "the settlements are the occupation." Apparently she's just as unintelligent or dishonest as her boy Peter.
You said that neither the un nor human rights groups considered the settlements the occupation, yet hem and haw when presented with proof you’re wrong. Yet the UN says the settlements are the engine f occupation. Also, from Amnesty, https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/. Peter is not my boy and your diminutive condescension doesn’t bolster your claims.
Human dignity is the cornerstone to any sustainable peace. A number of years ago, meeting with Colin Powell's former chief of staff (both at DOD and State) I asked him if he was familiar with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights...he knew of it, but did not know it. I gave him a copy and asked if he thought it could be an effective tool. He said he saw one problem, it would be to inexpensive and Congress would never cut out the many jobs derived from the Military Industrial Complex. The more work I've done here in the US and around the world, the clearer it is, when people find their dignity they have an investment in their society doing well. When dignity is stripped from them, they have no reason to support that government or society. If we want peace in the Middle East, in Europe, and even in the USA (which teeters on the verge of greater violence) we should explore deploying the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as foundational to survival. For almost 75 years it has been one of the world's best kept secrets. Now is the time to unleash it's powers.
Agree !
There is simply no comparison between Israel Russia, Ukraine, Detroit etc. This is not a winning or let us say illuminating approach to Israel/Palestine.
The facts are that over time Palestinians have come to believe they were dispossessed (it's complicated) and that the only solution is repossession (more complicated). Quoting Abbas saying that he wants a Palestinian state without planes and guns and police with only batons is meaningless as it comes from a man who has not faced the ballot box and the reason is simply if he were he would lose to Hamas (which does say something about the Palestinian public). And we know Hamas certainly believe in violence and as you point out they might consider a truce. But who in Israel would consider a truce with Hamas just 10 miles away from Tel Aviv and literally just a fence away from Jerusalem?
There will be a solution to the Arab Israel problem, but it is not going to be a single state encompassing Palestinians and Israelis. It also is not going to be acceptable, and it has never been acceptable to the Palestinians to have the West bank as a state—they have made it clear since 1948, when they had complete control of the West Bank and Arafat rejected it even with the Arab section of the Old City in 2000. Every such solution has been rejected without exception.
I am looking forward to your interview with former PM Olmert. He came the closest until he was unseated by Netanyahu.
Every "solution" offered by Israel over the years has kept Israelis in charge militarily, giving Palestinians an inferior status. Why would any people agree to a deal which would not give them full autonomy and an equal share of the land ?
There are numerous examples of history where wars end with the defeated party not being given full autonomy. Just to give one, Germany after WWII was divided in two and occupied for several years, as well as demilitarized, and that was AFTER the peace treaty was signed. "Inferior status", sure, that's what happens when you lose a war. Why is Palestine special? Why is it the only party to lose a war and still expect to get everything it wants on a silver platter?
Once again the argument seems to me simple. How does the Old Testament or the holocaust justify the negation of 1300 years of history and the takeover of another peoples' land.
Just FYI, it's 2022, not 1948. But while we're on the subject, which "other peoples land" are you referring to?
Israel was unfairly created from the start and took more land than the UN partition had allocated to it. It was built on a land where thousands of people were already living and destroyed their towns and villages to develop a new country and continues to steal what little land is left from the Palestinians.. There is no comparison with Germany.
The time to debate Israel's "unfair" creation was over 70 years ago. It is pointless to discuss it now.
Really "unfairly created" pray tell what country was fairly created?