Our Zoom call this week will be at our regular time: Friday at Noon EDT. Our guest will be the Israeli feminist activist and theorist Hannah Safran, author of Don’t Wanna Be Nice Girls: The Struggle for Suffrage and the New Feminism in Israel. We’ll talk about the role of gender and women’s rights in the Israeli government’s effort at judicial overhaul, and the protest movement against it. We’ll also talk about the relationship between Israeli feminism and the struggle for Palestinian freedom.
Anti-Zionists, Palestinians, and their apologists are quaking in their boots right now, as their worst fears are becoming realized. A Saudi-Israeli normalization deal means the axis of Arab resistance is well and truly over. No one is riding in on a white horse to drive the Jews into the sea on behalf of the Palestinians. No one is going to execute the genocide Palestine wants. There's only one alternative left now, which is to give up, accept Israel's existence, make peace, and live with the reality of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
Beinart, spare us the hand wringing about violations of international law. Your beloved Palestine treats international law like toilet paper and openly, flagrantly and unapologetically commits war crimes. If Saudi Arabia hated Israel, you'd be as critical of its human rights violations as you have been of Lebanon and Syria's, which is to say, practically not at all. You're just mad that there's yet another Arab state who's checking out of the deluded, racist, hateful Palestinian cause, and this is you coping. I for one am enjoying every minute of it.
Save your celebration for a while. Saudi Arabia was always an axe not an axis of Arab resistance or unity. Peace with the whole world will not solve Israel's insecurity. It is a state of mind of any thief and oppressor. Short of a holocaust against the Palestinians, which Israel is well capable of, the Palestinians will be there as a razer blade in Israel's throat. Justice, law, and equality will produce peace, not criminal dictators bedding with Apartheidicks.
You’re right, Jamal, Saudi Arabia wasn’t part of the axis of Arab resistance because there is no axis of Arab resistance and there never was. It was always a comforting delusion the Palestinians told each other while they butchered babies in their beds and danced on the graves of the innocent people they slaughtered. But the truth is the Arab-Israeli conflict ended in the ‘70s and all that has happened since has been the murderous temper tantrums of a people hopped up on their own propaganda, fully believing that if they just kept killing then eventually they would get everything they ever wanted in the face of all logic and reason.
Soon is the day Palestine will come begging the Israelis for peace, with hat in hand. And on that day you will see justice be done. I for one can’t wait. It’s coming soon. You’ll see.
Really, Anonymous, you are talking utter rubbish. You are starting to believe your own propaganda.
Here is the truth:
"Israel – foundling of a failing empire (British) on the backyard of another (Ottoman), within the nightmare shadow of a third (Nazi), adopted by a fourth (US), whose exploitative bid to establish a proxy imperial force in the Middle East and scatter competing candidates for imperial failure (including Soviet, Arab, and Iranian), has helped beget and stiffen this settler-dominated, nuclear, dependent, theocratic, apartheid, political entity (i.e. a state and the territories it has forcibly annexed) of approximately seven million Israelis (mainly Jews) and seven million Palestinians (mainly Muslim) – equivalent to only a third of the population of California – whose perennial conflict is a disproportionately fractious threat to a planet of eight billion.
Knee-jerk deference to Israeli interests is exhibited by all US administrations – none less than in the case of the current Biden-Blinken team, who have even resurrected a frothy insistence on US support for the “two-state” solution as the only possible solution. Of course, there will be some insignificant distracting theatrics in response to progressive Democratic protest. It is more important to note that resort to “two-state” nonsense is depressing at various levels, most particularly because of what it reveals about the odious combination of ignorance, misunderstanding and hypocrisy, and the resounding absence of anything resembling imagination in the US State Department. If the two-state solution were going to work, it would have worked by now. It has had at the very least, twenty-five years of gestation. It was and is a still-birth. It has not worked, because it could never have worked."
Saudi-Israeli normalization could usher in a new era for the Middle East. If the Saudis normalize, other Arab states are likely to follow. A regional trade bloc would allow capital and innovation to flow, while outliers like Iran and Syria would be isolated. Unfortunately, the Palestinians could also be left behind, unless they finally end their 75-year rejection campaign and embrace the potential of peace. I believe that they will, but only if they elect new leaders with the courage and vision to see what's best for their people.
This comment an many others seem so out of reality at this moment in time. See the whole concept that Palestinians are the obstacle of peace, is the biggest lie of them all. Doubt this statement will change the mind of those on the other side. However, explain to me the Israel attack on 1967 and the endless building of settlements in the West Bank? This whole peace thing would be over in an extremely simple fashion. 1) US recognizes State of Palestine 2) Israel Stops and gives up all the illegal settlements in the West Bank ( They always knew they were illegal. How can anyone with a straight face think someone who wanted peace would go ahead and build those. It is ludicrous) 3) US recognized UN resolutions 242 and 141 ( Israel will follow). That's it! All done! Everyone can live in peace and harmony like never before
You can't have it both ways, Peter. You can't say that Saudi normalization will increase Israel's "de facto" annexation and ethnic cleansing of the West Bank (two absurd claims) and then also say that Saudi Arabia and Israel are already at "de facto" peace so normalization won't change anything. Saudi Arabia is already best buddies with the US and has been for decades, so the faux concern about Yemen and other Saudi behavior won't be affected in any way by Israeli normalization either.
It was a kiss of death. The monarch was toppled the following year in a revolution of historic proportions, in part a response to his not-so-secret alliance with Israel. With bare hands, millions of Iranians forced the Shah to flee even though he had been MASSIVELY armed with America's most advanced weapons available only to Israel and NATO. I should know; my father, a general, helped run the Shah's army counter-intelligence for the southern half of Iran.
Let's also recall the revolution's trademark hostility to the US was (still is) payback for the 1953 CIA coup that restored the Shah to the throne. How's that for stability?!!!!
I think Jake Sullivan is speaking on behalf of the US foreign-policy Blob, not any particular electoral constituency.
So we double-down on hypocrisy in shamelessly sucking up to an autocratic repressive regime like Saudi Arabia all the while claiming our goals are to advance democracy abroad. Please.
Mr. Beinart mentions criticisms of the Israeli govt, but most Americans largely support Israel. But do you think the Republican base wants to get signed up for a commitment for more endless wars in the Middle East? Does the Democratic base have “shared values” with the Saudis who credibly gunned-down and shelled a thousand Ethiopian migrants on their border and starved to death 10,000s of Yemenese children all without consequence?
The talk of creating a “peace agreement” between the non-adversaries of Israel and Saudi is of a piece with talking about our commitment to the two-state solution. It relies on a superficial 1980’s sentimentalism about White House Rose Garden handshakes or photo-ops of grinning sheiks in front of Tel Aviv falafel stands that’s devolved beyond farce at this point.
I suspect it’s mostly about “stabilizing” the careers of middle-East think tank experts and of defense contractors who fear a US drawdown in the region. It invites more of the cynicism that fuels domestic populism that undermines any long-term US foreign policy strategic vision.
"most Americans largely support Israel" - not quite, but mostly true. According to Pew Research in 2022:
"More than half of Americans (55%) have favorable views of Israel, while 41% say they have unfavorable views of the country. Notably, this is slightly more than the share who reported favorable views of the Israeli government (48%) and lower than the share who said they had favorable views of the Israeli people (67%)"
I guess my point was that Americans would generally have few objections—or, I should say, pros would greatly outweigh cons—to Biden making an effort to broker a “peace agreement” between Israel with Arab states even if they had strong disagreements with the current Israeli government or its policies. Provided, of course, it did not come at such a heavy cost and risk.
Those questions in your poll data mostly frame being “pro-Israel” as the opposite of being “pro-Palestinian” as a zero-sum contest of sympathies. I suspect questions that probed US support for Israeli people and security that were neutral on the Palestinians—for example, on supporting US security subsidies for Israel, vis a vis Iran, in general—would have higher margins.
The framing of the poll questions matter. It wasn’t that long ago that being in favor of an honest-to-god US-brokered two-state solution (i.e., based on the pre-1967 lines, and to be completed on a timeline of a few years) as a way to end the Israeli occupation and provide for a just and lasting peace and security with the Palestinians was THE pro-Israel position in the US.
Now someone in the US who takes that position sincerely would be considered “anti-Israel” in modern alignment. “Pro-Israel” in the US now means AIPAC’s pro government, anti-Palestinian, occupation-whitewash stance.
The broader context is America's push to line up and tie-in all its allies in regional blocks, military alliances and the like, to be stronger for the planned confrontation with China, and perhaps Iran and North Korea. Under all recent and likely presidents and ruling parties, the US is a belligerent power that will take any steps to hold on to its crumbling hegemony. Steps towards peace, or at least acceptance, between Saudi and Iran, in an agreement China helped facilitate, are deeply troubling to US. 'Regional stability' takes second place to destroying any country (not just regime replacement) that has an ideological or economic difference with US. But Sullivan can't say that, so he needs to mouth off some covering platitudes, like they do when creating AUKUS or bolstering NATO. Weapon systems (re-)supply and war is extremely useful and profitable to US as various Senators and others have expressed lately in relation to Ukraine where instability is created to weaken Putin and Russia in preference to regional peace and stability. It's a long game.
As usual “Professor” you are wrong; countries don’t have to be in a formal state of war to “make peace.” Also, you speak about Israel and Saudi Arabia like they are the Palestinian Authority and Iran…in a region of complexity you dumb things down because of your leftist rose colored glasses not seeing the wider reality…is the status quo a problem, was Judicial reform divisive …Yes…Was Saudi Arabia wrong to execute khashoggi of course but these things pale in comparison to the benefit of Israel-Saudi peace and reconciliation with an Iconic country in both the Arab and Muslim world and where is your criticism and how come you never expect anything from the Palestinians…because you are an ivory tower, condescending Monday morning Quarterback who is really more entertaining than Adam Sandler in the “Water boy.”
These are the animals Peter thinks can live in harmony in a single state with Israel. Have you seen the photos of dead women? Teenage girls being pulled by their hair? Over 600 innocent people killed and 2200 wounded, with dozens kidnapped back into Gaza?
Iran was certainly behind this massacre, this pogrom, motivated to disrupt the potential of a new Middle East with normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would include steps to improve the Palestinian Authority and West Bank, and thereby reduce Iranian influence through Hamas and Hezbollah. Now, with her iron fist response, Israel will hopefully destroy Hamas once and for all. I hope the Saudis will look beyond the deaths of Palestinian civilians that Hamas will intentionally put in harms way.
The U.S. is trapped in it's relationship with Saudi Arabia. Keeping access open to oil will pretty much force the U.S. to go along, if not actually endorse, Saudi Arabia's actions regarding its own people or it's international excursions. Also Saudi Arabia is looked at by both the U.S. and Israel as a counterweight to Iran. Israel needs Saudi Arabia to be on their side in the event of an attack on or by Iran. So while the U.S. may not like the Saudi government, the realities on the ground force the U.S. to play ball with them.
I think it’s one thing to acknowledge Saudi leverage on world oil markets and therefore domestic US gas prices. That’s the world we live in and US presidents having to “play ball” with SA is unavoidable.
It’s another thing altogether to go far, far out of the way to shower them with indulgences and long term security obligations and take huge risks on regional nuclear proliferation. as Biden seems intent on doing.
It’s always going to be in Saudi interest to court China and their massively gas-consuming regional ambitions. Biden is not buying monogamous Saudi affections here.
And in parallel, Saudi and Iran are cosying up. What does that say? So-called sworn enemies making overtures to each other ...via China! - and witness Saudi temporarily exporting its most expensive football player, Ronaldo, to the adoring crowds of Teheran.
Do you think Saudi are subtly working to smooth Iran/Israel antagonism? I doubt it.
And remember, because you mention 9/11 several times, the Wahabi ideology behind that was Saudi, and not Taliban or Saddam, who wound up paying the bill with only Iran making significant gains. Unintended consequences.
Just catching up on some old emails and had missed this video. Sadly, so very sadly, you were right, and we would see these predictions begin and the sub sequential horrors on Oct 7.. 4 days after this video posted. My heart hurts.
Anti-Zionists, Palestinians, and their apologists are quaking in their boots right now, as their worst fears are becoming realized. A Saudi-Israeli normalization deal means the axis of Arab resistance is well and truly over. No one is riding in on a white horse to drive the Jews into the sea on behalf of the Palestinians. No one is going to execute the genocide Palestine wants. There's only one alternative left now, which is to give up, accept Israel's existence, make peace, and live with the reality of a Jewish state in the Middle East.
Beinart, spare us the hand wringing about violations of international law. Your beloved Palestine treats international law like toilet paper and openly, flagrantly and unapologetically commits war crimes. If Saudi Arabia hated Israel, you'd be as critical of its human rights violations as you have been of Lebanon and Syria's, which is to say, practically not at all. You're just mad that there's yet another Arab state who's checking out of the deluded, racist, hateful Palestinian cause, and this is you coping. I for one am enjoying every minute of it.
Save your celebration for a while. Saudi Arabia was always an axe not an axis of Arab resistance or unity. Peace with the whole world will not solve Israel's insecurity. It is a state of mind of any thief and oppressor. Short of a holocaust against the Palestinians, which Israel is well capable of, the Palestinians will be there as a razer blade in Israel's throat. Justice, law, and equality will produce peace, not criminal dictators bedding with Apartheidicks.
You’re right, Jamal, Saudi Arabia wasn’t part of the axis of Arab resistance because there is no axis of Arab resistance and there never was. It was always a comforting delusion the Palestinians told each other while they butchered babies in their beds and danced on the graves of the innocent people they slaughtered. But the truth is the Arab-Israeli conflict ended in the ‘70s and all that has happened since has been the murderous temper tantrums of a people hopped up on their own propaganda, fully believing that if they just kept killing then eventually they would get everything they ever wanted in the face of all logic and reason.
Soon is the day Palestine will come begging the Israelis for peace, with hat in hand. And on that day you will see justice be done. I for one can’t wait. It’s coming soon. You’ll see.
Really, Anonymous, you are talking utter rubbish. You are starting to believe your own propaganda.
Here is the truth:
"Israel – foundling of a failing empire (British) on the backyard of another (Ottoman), within the nightmare shadow of a third (Nazi), adopted by a fourth (US), whose exploitative bid to establish a proxy imperial force in the Middle East and scatter competing candidates for imperial failure (including Soviet, Arab, and Iranian), has helped beget and stiffen this settler-dominated, nuclear, dependent, theocratic, apartheid, political entity (i.e. a state and the territories it has forcibly annexed) of approximately seven million Israelis (mainly Jews) and seven million Palestinians (mainly Muslim) – equivalent to only a third of the population of California – whose perennial conflict is a disproportionately fractious threat to a planet of eight billion.
Knee-jerk deference to Israeli interests is exhibited by all US administrations – none less than in the case of the current Biden-Blinken team, who have even resurrected a frothy insistence on US support for the “two-state” solution as the only possible solution. Of course, there will be some insignificant distracting theatrics in response to progressive Democratic protest. It is more important to note that resort to “two-state” nonsense is depressing at various levels, most particularly because of what it reveals about the odious combination of ignorance, misunderstanding and hypocrisy, and the resounding absence of anything resembling imagination in the US State Department. If the two-state solution were going to work, it would have worked by now. It has had at the very least, twenty-five years of gestation. It was and is a still-birth. It has not worked, because it could never have worked."
The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
Yup. Well put.
Saudi-Israeli normalization could usher in a new era for the Middle East. If the Saudis normalize, other Arab states are likely to follow. A regional trade bloc would allow capital and innovation to flow, while outliers like Iran and Syria would be isolated. Unfortunately, the Palestinians could also be left behind, unless they finally end their 75-year rejection campaign and embrace the potential of peace. I believe that they will, but only if they elect new leaders with the courage and vision to see what's best for their people.
This comment an many others seem so out of reality at this moment in time. See the whole concept that Palestinians are the obstacle of peace, is the biggest lie of them all. Doubt this statement will change the mind of those on the other side. However, explain to me the Israel attack on 1967 and the endless building of settlements in the West Bank? This whole peace thing would be over in an extremely simple fashion. 1) US recognizes State of Palestine 2) Israel Stops and gives up all the illegal settlements in the West Bank ( They always knew they were illegal. How can anyone with a straight face think someone who wanted peace would go ahead and build those. It is ludicrous) 3) US recognized UN resolutions 242 and 141 ( Israel will follow). That's it! All done! Everyone can live in peace and harmony like never before
You can't have it both ways, Peter. You can't say that Saudi normalization will increase Israel's "de facto" annexation and ethnic cleansing of the West Bank (two absurd claims) and then also say that Saudi Arabia and Israel are already at "de facto" peace so normalization won't change anything. Saudi Arabia is already best buddies with the US and has been for decades, so the faux concern about Yemen and other Saudi behavior won't be affected in any way by Israeli normalization either.
Thoughtful/Winters credibly threatened me in another thread here. Just letting everyone know the integrity of the person you’re dealing with here.
Let's not forget Jimmy Carter, at a 1978 state dinner in Tehran, toasted the Shah for making Iran an "island of stability" in the Middle East.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqrHQpRHwws
It was a kiss of death. The monarch was toppled the following year in a revolution of historic proportions, in part a response to his not-so-secret alliance with Israel. With bare hands, millions of Iranians forced the Shah to flee even though he had been MASSIVELY armed with America's most advanced weapons available only to Israel and NATO. I should know; my father, a general, helped run the Shah's army counter-intelligence for the southern half of Iran.
Let's also recall the revolution's trademark hostility to the US was (still is) payback for the 1953 CIA coup that restored the Shah to the throne. How's that for stability?!!!!
I think Jake Sullivan is speaking on behalf of the US foreign-policy Blob, not any particular electoral constituency.
So we double-down on hypocrisy in shamelessly sucking up to an autocratic repressive regime like Saudi Arabia all the while claiming our goals are to advance democracy abroad. Please.
Mr. Beinart mentions criticisms of the Israeli govt, but most Americans largely support Israel. But do you think the Republican base wants to get signed up for a commitment for more endless wars in the Middle East? Does the Democratic base have “shared values” with the Saudis who credibly gunned-down and shelled a thousand Ethiopian migrants on their border and starved to death 10,000s of Yemenese children all without consequence?
The talk of creating a “peace agreement” between the non-adversaries of Israel and Saudi is of a piece with talking about our commitment to the two-state solution. It relies on a superficial 1980’s sentimentalism about White House Rose Garden handshakes or photo-ops of grinning sheiks in front of Tel Aviv falafel stands that’s devolved beyond farce at this point.
I suspect it’s mostly about “stabilizing” the careers of middle-East think tank experts and of defense contractors who fear a US drawdown in the region. It invites more of the cynicism that fuels domestic populism that undermines any long-term US foreign policy strategic vision.
"most Americans largely support Israel" - not quite, but mostly true. According to Pew Research in 2022:
"More than half of Americans (55%) have favorable views of Israel, while 41% say they have unfavorable views of the country. Notably, this is slightly more than the share who reported favorable views of the Israeli government (48%) and lower than the share who said they had favorable views of the Israeli people (67%)"
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/
I guess my point was that Americans would generally have few objections—or, I should say, pros would greatly outweigh cons—to Biden making an effort to broker a “peace agreement” between Israel with Arab states even if they had strong disagreements with the current Israeli government or its policies. Provided, of course, it did not come at such a heavy cost and risk.
Those questions in your poll data mostly frame being “pro-Israel” as the opposite of being “pro-Palestinian” as a zero-sum contest of sympathies. I suspect questions that probed US support for Israeli people and security that were neutral on the Palestinians—for example, on supporting US security subsidies for Israel, vis a vis Iran, in general—would have higher margins.
The framing of the poll questions matter. It wasn’t that long ago that being in favor of an honest-to-god US-brokered two-state solution (i.e., based on the pre-1967 lines, and to be completed on a timeline of a few years) as a way to end the Israeli occupation and provide for a just and lasting peace and security with the Palestinians was THE pro-Israel position in the US.
Now someone in the US who takes that position sincerely would be considered “anti-Israel” in modern alignment. “Pro-Israel” in the US now means AIPAC’s pro government, anti-Palestinian, occupation-whitewash stance.
Absolutely correct. This is my take on this fiasco:
https://sbahour.medium.com/19aba701a17f?sk=ea69e02170cf025884dd908b2a16ecda
The broader context is America's push to line up and tie-in all its allies in regional blocks, military alliances and the like, to be stronger for the planned confrontation with China, and perhaps Iran and North Korea. Under all recent and likely presidents and ruling parties, the US is a belligerent power that will take any steps to hold on to its crumbling hegemony. Steps towards peace, or at least acceptance, between Saudi and Iran, in an agreement China helped facilitate, are deeply troubling to US. 'Regional stability' takes second place to destroying any country (not just regime replacement) that has an ideological or economic difference with US. But Sullivan can't say that, so he needs to mouth off some covering platitudes, like they do when creating AUKUS or bolstering NATO. Weapon systems (re-)supply and war is extremely useful and profitable to US as various Senators and others have expressed lately in relation to Ukraine where instability is created to weaken Putin and Russia in preference to regional peace and stability. It's a long game.
As usual “Professor” you are wrong; countries don’t have to be in a formal state of war to “make peace.” Also, you speak about Israel and Saudi Arabia like they are the Palestinian Authority and Iran…in a region of complexity you dumb things down because of your leftist rose colored glasses not seeing the wider reality…is the status quo a problem, was Judicial reform divisive …Yes…Was Saudi Arabia wrong to execute khashoggi of course but these things pale in comparison to the benefit of Israel-Saudi peace and reconciliation with an Iconic country in both the Arab and Muslim world and where is your criticism and how come you never expect anything from the Palestinians…because you are an ivory tower, condescending Monday morning Quarterback who is really more entertaining than Adam Sandler in the “Water boy.”
These are the animals Peter thinks can live in harmony in a single state with Israel. Have you seen the photos of dead women? Teenage girls being pulled by their hair? Over 600 innocent people killed and 2200 wounded, with dozens kidnapped back into Gaza?
Iran was certainly behind this massacre, this pogrom, motivated to disrupt the potential of a new Middle East with normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, which would include steps to improve the Palestinian Authority and West Bank, and thereby reduce Iranian influence through Hamas and Hezbollah. Now, with her iron fist response, Israel will hopefully destroy Hamas once and for all. I hope the Saudis will look beyond the deaths of Palestinian civilians that Hamas will intentionally put in harms way.
The U.S. is trapped in it's relationship with Saudi Arabia. Keeping access open to oil will pretty much force the U.S. to go along, if not actually endorse, Saudi Arabia's actions regarding its own people or it's international excursions. Also Saudi Arabia is looked at by both the U.S. and Israel as a counterweight to Iran. Israel needs Saudi Arabia to be on their side in the event of an attack on or by Iran. So while the U.S. may not like the Saudi government, the realities on the ground force the U.S. to play ball with them.
I think it’s one thing to acknowledge Saudi leverage on world oil markets and therefore domestic US gas prices. That’s the world we live in and US presidents having to “play ball” with SA is unavoidable.
It’s another thing altogether to go far, far out of the way to shower them with indulgences and long term security obligations and take huge risks on regional nuclear proliferation. as Biden seems intent on doing.
It’s always going to be in Saudi interest to court China and their massively gas-consuming regional ambitions. Biden is not buying monogamous Saudi affections here.
And in parallel, Saudi and Iran are cosying up. What does that say? So-called sworn enemies making overtures to each other ...via China! - and witness Saudi temporarily exporting its most expensive football player, Ronaldo, to the adoring crowds of Teheran.
Do you think Saudi are subtly working to smooth Iran/Israel antagonism? I doubt it.
And remember, because you mention 9/11 several times, the Wahabi ideology behind that was Saudi, and not Taliban or Saddam, who wound up paying the bill with only Iran making significant gains. Unintended consequences.
So what are we saying here? No continued efforts to make peace with Arab countries? Seriously? I just don’t understand it. Ridiculous.
Just catching up on some old emails and had missed this video. Sadly, so very sadly, you were right, and we would see these predictions begin and the sub sequential horrors on Oct 7.. 4 days after this video posted. My heart hurts.