Peter writes this whole column, and never talks about the elephant in the room: The complete and total refusal by Palestine to live in peace with Israel. Notice that he never gives any agency to any Palestinians in this article. They are never responsible for their own fate and situation, all they do is just live under the conditions imposed on them by Israel and react accordingly.
Israel is faced with a hostile nation, Palestine, that has trained its people for generations at this point to hate Israel and Israelis and Jews. Its only aspiration in life is to wipe Israel off the map. Fatah is the governing party of the PA, and the closest Palestine has to a "moderate" party, yet it writes in its charter that their goal is the "eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." This enemy has no moral qualms whatsoever, no interest in following international law or basic morality, and is more than willing to target Israel's civilians, use their own civilians as human shields, and use child soldiers like we saw last week in Jenin. Such war crimes are in Palestine's DNA.
Peter is right. In Israel, peace is no longer seen as a reasonable possibility, because everyone in Israel and really across the world knows Palestine doesn't want it. Palestine refused peace offers ten times and has never been able to make peace with any Israeli government, left, right, and center. So, the viewpoint in Israel has turned to "conflict management" or as Peter mentioned "shrinking the conflict." They realize that Palestine will never want peace with Israel and will continue the murdering and war crimes no matter what Israel does, so Israel needs to find methods that "shrink" the conflict, or reduce the violence to as low a level as possible while still recognizing it will never stop entirely. This includes things like lowering the number of checkpoints, but still keeping some of them, and, yes, working with the Palestinian Authority to stop attacks before they happen, like the intervention in Jenin this week. Peter of course hates this idea, because if Palestinians and Israelis aren't actively killing each other, he won't be asked to speak on CNN about how Israel is bad.
I'm not a big fan of the Palestinian Authority either, but I certainly don't have a problem with them stopping terror attacks and reducing the violence. That's probably the least objectionable thing about the PA.
If Peter thinks the current situation is so bad and "apartheid", let's hear him insist on Palestine ceasing the terror attacks and making actual steps towards a lasting peace with Israel. He didn't talk much about actual peace with Israel in his article because he cannot deny Palestine doesn't want it, and if Palestine is to blame for something, that something isn't worth discussing.
These comments by Winters are definitely from the hasbara handbook. Winters is probably sitting in Israel somewhere looking into a laptop, copying and pasting, perhaps with Anonymous assisting. Peter, do something about these bad, bad people.
The “Hasbara Handbook” explains many standard techniques of propaganda and deceptive rhetoric. It rehearses specific arguments and counter-arguments and outlines a program of training for advocacy and rebuttal. It also stresses the importance of labeling or “name-calling” – the linking of a person or idea to a negative symbol. The handbook places itself in a larger context. It commends the work of “CAMERA” – the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America – an organization notorious for the viciousness of its efforts to blacken the reputations of those who criticize Israel or advance accounts of events that deviate from the official Israeli narrative by branding them as “anti-Semitic” or “self-hating Jews.” It notes that CAMERA provides a free monthly magazine full of timely hasbara materials for Jewish students in the United States. A myriad of Israel-oriented think tanks provide similar guidance online, as do numerous websites in Israel itself.
I'm truly surprised it took you guys this long to pull out the "hasbara" and "paid shill". Usually it's deployed the second anyone criticizes Palestine. Part of the preprogrammed dehumanization of anyone who is pro-Israel that's standard for Palestine supporters. A lot easier to abuse and bully someone if they're not actually fully human.
That is pretty rich, even for you, to accuse me of "copying and pasting", since literally everything you post is a copy and paste from someone else, including your second paragraph, which is plagiarised from the Middle East Policy Council! What's with the hypocrisy, dude??
"Israel is faced with a hostile nation, Palestine, that has trained its people for generations at this point to hate Israel and Israelis and Jews. Its only aspiration in life is to wipe Israel off the map."
So now Palestine is a *nation*, like Israel? And a nation that has *life*, and an *aspiration* in that life? We understand "Palestine" as a geographic term. You purport to be enlightening readers here (largely people with a certain sophistication in their level of knowledge of Palestine and Israel) with your perspective that is better than our host's perspective, and yet you start off by talking about "Palestine" and making us try to infer just what you mean by that term from the contexts in which you use it.
Of course Palestine is a nation, that's what I said and unlike some people around here I say exactly what I meant. I recognize the existence of both the nation of Palestine and the state of Palestine (declared in 1988). You don't? Am I more pro-Palestinian than you? That would certainly be an ironic twist.
I don't understand you seeming to ignore the history of modern Israel. Are you holding a too liberal point of view with regard to the Palestinians? Do you not remember that every time Israel gave up something to them, that the Palestinians promptly carried out attacks against Israel and its citizens? Are you blissfully unaware that the Palestinians have continually chanted "Death to the Israelis!" and "Drive them into the sea" since the nation was formed (and before!)? I'm sure you know that history, so I can't figure out your motivation or your viewpoint. I would love to hear a defense of your position.
Stop calling Israel a colonial regime and the PA a subcontractor…you see Mr Beinart your perspective is a western one that is condescending and alien to the region; before European ideas were introduced by colonial forces like England and France no one thought like you and everything was based on religion, tribe and clan…you, my lettered friend, think everyone thinks like you..THEY DO NOT…Jews are indigenous based on history, archaeology and communal tradition to this land and have always been there and aspired to return. The PA is at fault for not nurturing reconciliation, nation building and security. Stop being a social worker and start being a realist.
"Jews are indigenous based on history, archaeology and communal tradition to this land and have always been there and aspired to return."
Do you mean that all Jews are indigenous to this land? And conversely, that all the people indigenous to this land are Jews? How do you understand indigeneity? If a person's ancestors were all living in this land 2000 years ago, at which time they were all Jews, but later ancestors were all Christians and Muslims after conversion, does that mean that the person does not belong to a people indigenous to the land?
The Jewish nation is indigenous to the land. If ancestors convert and join other, foreign, nations and abandon their Jewish nationality, they can no longer claim indigenousness.
There are no absolutes; Jews as a communal and national group are indigenous which does not mean that every one living there now is. Most Palestinian Arab Muslims and Christians have a rightful claim-I never said they did not-what is wrong is their beliefs that Jews do not have this same equally valid claim
Most Palestinians have always and continue to believe in your options 5 and 6. The reason there was no national infrastructure in 1967 territories when Israel defended itself from Jordanian and Egyptian aggression is because those respective areas were controlled by other states-notice how despite being created in 1964/65 no Palestinian nationalist group called for Jordanian and Egyptian expulsion and the creation of a Palestinian state in those areas…
Why does Peter Beinart insist on condescending ly infantilizing the PA and not holding them accountable; the whole idea behind Oslo was for them to make places like Jenin orderly and part of their civil catchment area…if they did that the IDF would not have to act alone. Mr Beinart feels he knows what’s best for the Palestinians-this is a typical form of intellectual colonialism and pandering. Face it: The PA and it’s corrupt, nepotistic and I democratic hierarchy is run like a crime family by a converted Jew who only cares about staying in power by feigning impotence in English and instructing his minions to glorify terrorists, stoke irredentism and spout anti demotic rhetoric in Arabic.
An interesting analysis of the appalling situation that the apartheid Zionist state of Israel is imposing on the Palestinian people. No doubt the Zionists who for some reason (guilt? Who knows?) hang around the comment threads here will reject the clarity of what you wrote and somehow blame Palestinians for having the temerity to live in Israel/Palestine.
Those of us around the world who want to see Palestinians allowed to return and live peacefully in their homeland must stay informed as to the malign intentions of violent Zionism and its followers who, as is miserably and painfully clear, will not stop until they have cleared Israel/Palestine of the last Palestinian. But the Palestinian movement is vigorous and popular, and it has right on its side.
Here in the UK, we can support the excellent and courageous work of Palestine Action which is successfully building local movements of direct action against the Israeli state-owned arms trade and its factories, such as Elbit Systems. The British state has responded by prosecuting these brave people, and they surely need our backing.
James, no one is "imposing" anything on the Palestinians. They are in a situation entirely of their own making through 80 years of terrorism, murder, and war crimes. No one is blaming them for "having the temerity to live in Israel/Palestine" but that kind of dishonest strawman is quite typical among Palestine supporters who are not able to approach this situation with any kind of intellectual honesty.
If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar? How about this nugget from Fatah's charter, the goal of "the eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence"?
If you want Palestinians to "live peacefully in Palestine", they're welcome to do so at any time. All they have to do is recognize Jewish people as their fellow human beings and sign on the dotted line. We're all waiting.
“ They are in a situation entirely of their own making through 80 years of terrorism, murder, and war crime.”
If that is the case, why is Israel so afraid of putting their case at the International Criminal Court. The Palestinians have no such fear.
“ If you want Palestinians to "live peacefully in Palestine", they're welcome to do so at any time.”
All Palestinians have to do is let Jewish settlers aided and abetted by Israel, to continue to steal their land, to evict them from their homes, to treat them like animals.
"If that is the case, why is Israel so afraid of putting their case at the International Criminal Court"
It is the case, and the decisions of the Israeli government in regards to unelected officials in Brussels have nothing to do with whether or not it is the case.
"All Palestinians have to do is let Jewish settlers aided and abetted by Israel, to continue to steal their land, to evict them from their homes, to treat them like animals."
In a peaceful 2SS like the ones Israel has offered Palestine multiple times, the EEEVIL settlers will either be in Israel and away from the poor innocent blameless Palestinians or under the control of the the Palestinian government so the Palestinians can enforce their laws and stop the settlers' bad behavior themselves. Either way, those things you mentioned won't happen. If you actually didn't like settler violence (I know you really do like it, because it makes Palestinians victims), you'd want peace just as much as I do.
You should stick with copying and pasting plagiarised material, Sean. Your own thoughts aren't very substantive.
I am proud to copy and paste the writings of Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Robert Herbst, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Peter Beinart, and many more righteous Jews, because with those writers one will always read the truth about Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians.
"Here in Israel your hands are dirty, and if you are not actively fighting against the occupation, you are supporting the occupation. Period." Ayelet Waldman & Michael Chabon."
Ah, so when YOU copy and paste things, that's fine. But when I post my own thoughts and views, that makes me "hasbara." Got it. Thanks for explaining it to me.
And then here we go, yet another copy and paste, and this time it's the the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality, followed by a personal attack. The favorite viewpoint of bullies and tyrants everywhere. Of course, the same logic doesn't apply to Palestinian terror and murder, right? If you're not actively fighting it, then you're against it?
Are you actively fighting Palestinian murder and terrorism, Sean?
Wouldn't you know all about bullies & tyrants, aren't there many of them in Israel? Over half a century of bullying Palestinians and when they resist you call them terrorists.
For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers. It's misleading and unfair to focus on what Palestinians might allegedly do in the future, while the past and present of Palestinians are filled with Israeli war crimes. These types of accusations are meant to deflect and confuse the core issues of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The core issues of the conflict are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer) of the Palestinian people for the past 7+ decades. It should be emphasized that the conflict would have been at the same level of intensity, even if both warring parties had been Muslims, Christians, or even Jewish.
Since the inception of Zionism, its leaders have been keen on creating a "Jewish State" based on a "Jewish majority" by mass immigration of Jews to Palestine, primarily European Jews fleeing from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany. When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve, based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionist leaders (such as Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, and Chaim Weizmann) concluded that "population transfer" was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." Year after year, the plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people became known as the "transfer solution". David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated the "transfer solution" as the following:
In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938:
"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement].... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
"If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar? "
Yes, I've heard it at many rallies. You are showing that you have misunderstood it. To Palestinians and their allies, "Palestine" is a geographic term, referring to the land delineated by the boundaries of the former Palestine Mandate. So talk of Palestine's "intentions", malign or otherwise, doesn't even make sense. The literal meaning of the slogan is that, unlike in the present, all of the land in question will be free some time in the future.
If Palestine is a geographic term, then the phrase makes no sense. Land isn't people, so land can't be "free." Unless they're talking about selling it for no cost, which seems just a little bit unlikely.
Everyone here knows what that phrase means. You can't try to mansplain something different. We all know Palestinians and their allies want Israel gone and an Arab Muslim state from the river to the sea. That's what the polls say. That's what the leadership says. That's what the phrase means. You will never be able to convince anyone of anything different, so don't even bother to try. The only person here "misunderstanding" the phrase is you.
Any thoughts on the Fatah charter quote, about a goal being "the eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence"? Care to mansplain away that one?
"If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar?"
Ever heard of the "OLD TESTAMENT? Yahweh mapped out the boundaries of the promised land, Zion, and it gave to his special few, the chosen people, the Jews. Genesis 12:7, 15:18-21, 28: 13, etc.
Exodus 23:31 is more specific and pertinent in this argument as it describes the borders as marked by the Red Sea and the River Euphrates.
Is this testament OLD or the promise still holds? It's in the Jewish "Holy Book."
Ever heard of whataboutery? I'm far more interested in what Palestinians and their supporters are chanting today than what was written down thousands of years ago.
Your comment about Israel having expulsion in its DNA is not only Anti Zionist but feeds into the meme in the Arab world of the expansionist and evil “ Jews.” Also, Israel accepted partition in 1948 and where not the ones who closed off The Strait of Tiran and fought as a coalition to throw the Jews in the Sea…Apartheid is also faulty and inappropriate in your thesis…Arab citizens of Israel vote and serve in the Knesset and receive state based civic services and benefits. Further Jews are indigenous to this land while White Europeans were never indigenous to South Africa
Peter's full "comment about Israel having expulsion in its DNA" is this: "Of course, Israel has in its political DNA this history of a mass expulsion at its founding, and another mass expulsion that people don’t talk about so much in 1967, and smaller scale expulsions kind of in-between."
Is there anything in there that isn't true? Or is your objection that he shouldn't make factual statements that are "Anti Zionist"?
Expulsion must be viewed in its proper historical context; yes a segment of the Palestinians was expelled during these periods as a result of their refusal to accept partition and inter communal violence …ignoring the context and related Mizrachi Jewish riots and expulsions/fleeing is selectively viewing history…Anti Zionism is simply the belief that Israel should not take its rightful place among the worlds nations and is often (not always) a tool of anti semites and chauvinistic salafists or political ideologies. Zionism is nothing more than the political articulation of our 2,000 year desire to return to our ancient nation state as a polity. By the way rejecting it and being a political apologist for the PA is naïve at best and a cynical weak collaborator at worst. The Satmar have embraced the Palestinian cause based on their own naïveté and desire to preserve their religious based “cult.”
Also, you mention Gaza …where are the settlements and lack of a governing authority there…it just goes to show how faulty your logic is; even when there are no Jews and a group controls the territory no reconciliation or peace is possible. By the way you using a Jewish term to describe the celebration of the martyrdom of a “ Shahid(a)” just illustrates your ignorance and ethnocentrism …how would you like it if they called Baruch Goldstein a “ Shahid”?
No, in this context, "Jewish" makes more sense than "Zionist". Sam is talking about Zionist indoctrination in Jewish communities specifically. The difference with Zionist indoctrination in non-Jewish communities is that those communities are not indoctrinated with the idea that the state of Israel acts in their name.
Israeli Jews and Israeli Druze voters are pushed rightward due to 75 years of non acceptance, idiotic and faulty rhetoric like yours and terror. The Naqba was for the most part caused by Arab aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism. What is unthinkable is how you pander to Arabs and hold Israel to a Roberts Rules standard in the Middle East…NO AMOUNT OF SURRENDER AND COLLABORATION WILL MAKE THE PALESTINIAN STREET ACCEPT YOU…WAKE UP AND DEMAND RESPECT THROUGH ACCOUNTABILITY AND STRENGTH
"The Naqba was for the most part caused by Arab aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism."
Oh really, it was the Palestinians' own fault? Not caused by, say, Jewish aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism? I look forward to reading your book where you develop this thesis.
"On the occasion of the Nakba, the overwhelming majority places the blame for it on non-Palestinian parties while only 7% believe that the weakness of the Palestinian people is primarily responsible. The "weak and conspiratorial Arab role" comes first with 38%, followed by the British Mandate with 36%, and Zionist organizations and movements with 16%."
Only 16% of Palestinians blame Zionists (or as you would say, Jewish aggression and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism) for the Nakba. The vast majority blame other Arabs and the British. Very few, of course, take personal responsibility for their own fate, no surprise there.
The Jewish state of Israel accepted partition and those opposed (Irgun) were violently incorporated into IDF and the new communal and political infrastructure. Is it chauvinistic to demand equality among the worlds nations. Is it wrong to defend yourself or should we have all gone directly to the sea or ovens…I don’t need to write a book to know what was right and wrong. In any inter communal struggle their is chauvinism and there will be instances of aggression…you and your type holding Jews to a different standard are either stuck in a ghetto mentality or hopelessly unrealistic…if you attack me and I decide to expel you for my national aspirations you are partially if not mostly to blame
I honestly think that all European and American Jews should be expelled from PALESTINE, especially Americans.
Americans, both Jews and non-J, save for a few level headed like Peter, have emboldened the purported victims of the Holocaust by funding them and supplying them with weapons to steal land and kill the poor, benighted and dark Arabs.
So religious, yet so callous. Thank god I'm atheist.
Thank you so much for saying what Peter and his supporters are all really thinking. It's greatly appreciated, especially the line about the "purported victims of the Holocaust." Peter's readership love to wrap themselves in a warm blanket of smug moral superiority, it's refreshing to see the black heart hiding underneath that blanket.
Your thoughts on USofW's statement above that "all European and American Jews should be expelled from PALESTINE, especially Americans" and that "Americans, both Jews and non-J, save for a few level headed like Peter, have emboldened the purported victims of the Holocaust by funding them and supplying them with weapons to steal land and kill the poor, benighted and dark Arabs."
Have your delicate eyes not come across that POV in print from Palestinian sympathizers before? It’s the Israel/Palestine conflict—it’s partisans regularly say harsh and uncharitable things about the other side. Reread some of your own posts, for example.
I read USoW’s opening salvo as a somewhat emotionally-wrought and mean-spirited response to the subject of the article, namely the prospects of unjust forced Arab expulsions from Palestine—as if to say “oh yeah? Well, it oughta be the non-native Jews who get expelled instead!”
Okay, it’s someone’s opinion. Substack is a pro-free speech platform. Why is anyone other than the poster morally accountable for it?
The second point, which I read as being about how Americans have actively facilitated Israel’s dispossession of Palestinians out of some sort of reparations regime for Holocaust victims and motivated in part by an inherent anti-Arab racism, is another opinion. It’s one that I think has considerable merit, although I would not have phrased it the way he did. But what of it? Did you read it differently?
Stunningly, Gaza is so outside your mind and worldview now that it never even merited a mention as one of the territories occupied in 1967. This also means you missed out on one of the major options left to Israel for the populated Palestinian areas of the West Bank--Gazification: Ghettoize, besiege and throw away the key for decades. Similar to the model that has been applied to the neighborhoods behind the wall in Jerusalem as well. Isn't it more likely that the Jenin op is laying the groundwork for this fate for these West Bank cities?
Great points. I agree with that as a more likely policy trajectory than mass forced transfers that would suffer from the unavoidably disastrous political optics for Israel.
Areas A&B would evolve into smaller isolated Gazastans in the W/B around population centers, each with their own sealed security perimeter, and annexation and civilian control everywhere else. Although most observers would probably use the word “Bantustan” drawing obvious South Africa parallels.
But one figures the RW Israeli govt would believe that the frog could be boiled slowly enough to avoid anything like the images of masses of human beings being herded to the borders that would be politically ruinous.
Netanyahu Knows he can count on Washington’s Complicity . According to the campaign watchdog site Open Secrets, while he was in the Senate Biden was the largest recipient of pro-Israel PAC money: $4,226,604—almost twice as much as the second-highest recipient, Hillary Clinton. . .
Peter writes this whole column, and never talks about the elephant in the room: The complete and total refusal by Palestine to live in peace with Israel. Notice that he never gives any agency to any Palestinians in this article. They are never responsible for their own fate and situation, all they do is just live under the conditions imposed on them by Israel and react accordingly.
Israel is faced with a hostile nation, Palestine, that has trained its people for generations at this point to hate Israel and Israelis and Jews. Its only aspiration in life is to wipe Israel off the map. Fatah is the governing party of the PA, and the closest Palestine has to a "moderate" party, yet it writes in its charter that their goal is the "eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence." This enemy has no moral qualms whatsoever, no interest in following international law or basic morality, and is more than willing to target Israel's civilians, use their own civilians as human shields, and use child soldiers like we saw last week in Jenin. Such war crimes are in Palestine's DNA.
Peter is right. In Israel, peace is no longer seen as a reasonable possibility, because everyone in Israel and really across the world knows Palestine doesn't want it. Palestine refused peace offers ten times and has never been able to make peace with any Israeli government, left, right, and center. So, the viewpoint in Israel has turned to "conflict management" or as Peter mentioned "shrinking the conflict." They realize that Palestine will never want peace with Israel and will continue the murdering and war crimes no matter what Israel does, so Israel needs to find methods that "shrink" the conflict, or reduce the violence to as low a level as possible while still recognizing it will never stop entirely. This includes things like lowering the number of checkpoints, but still keeping some of them, and, yes, working with the Palestinian Authority to stop attacks before they happen, like the intervention in Jenin this week. Peter of course hates this idea, because if Palestinians and Israelis aren't actively killing each other, he won't be asked to speak on CNN about how Israel is bad.
I'm not a big fan of the Palestinian Authority either, but I certainly don't have a problem with them stopping terror attacks and reducing the violence. That's probably the least objectionable thing about the PA.
If Peter thinks the current situation is so bad and "apartheid", let's hear him insist on Palestine ceasing the terror attacks and making actual steps towards a lasting peace with Israel. He didn't talk much about actual peace with Israel in his article because he cannot deny Palestine doesn't want it, and if Palestine is to blame for something, that something isn't worth discussing.
These comments by Winters are definitely from the hasbara handbook. Winters is probably sitting in Israel somewhere looking into a laptop, copying and pasting, perhaps with Anonymous assisting. Peter, do something about these bad, bad people.
The “Hasbara Handbook” explains many standard techniques of propaganda and deceptive rhetoric. It rehearses specific arguments and counter-arguments and outlines a program of training for advocacy and rebuttal. It also stresses the importance of labeling or “name-calling” – the linking of a person or idea to a negative symbol. The handbook places itself in a larger context. It commends the work of “CAMERA” – the Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America – an organization notorious for the viciousness of its efforts to blacken the reputations of those who criticize Israel or advance accounts of events that deviate from the official Israeli narrative by branding them as “anti-Semitic” or “self-hating Jews.” It notes that CAMERA provides a free monthly magazine full of timely hasbara materials for Jewish students in the United States. A myriad of Israel-oriented think tanks provide similar guidance online, as do numerous websites in Israel itself.
I'm truly surprised it took you guys this long to pull out the "hasbara" and "paid shill". Usually it's deployed the second anyone criticizes Palestine. Part of the preprogrammed dehumanization of anyone who is pro-Israel that's standard for Palestine supporters. A lot easier to abuse and bully someone if they're not actually fully human.
That is pretty rich, even for you, to accuse me of "copying and pasting", since literally everything you post is a copy and paste from someone else, including your second paragraph, which is plagiarised from the Middle East Policy Council! What's with the hypocrisy, dude??
"Israel is faced with a hostile nation, Palestine, that has trained its people for generations at this point to hate Israel and Israelis and Jews. Its only aspiration in life is to wipe Israel off the map."
So now Palestine is a *nation*, like Israel? And a nation that has *life*, and an *aspiration* in that life? We understand "Palestine" as a geographic term. You purport to be enlightening readers here (largely people with a certain sophistication in their level of knowledge of Palestine and Israel) with your perspective that is better than our host's perspective, and yet you start off by talking about "Palestine" and making us try to infer just what you mean by that term from the contexts in which you use it.
Of course Palestine is a nation, that's what I said and unlike some people around here I say exactly what I meant. I recognize the existence of both the nation of Palestine and the state of Palestine (declared in 1988). You don't? Am I more pro-Palestinian than you? That would certainly be an ironic twist.
i'd imagine neighboring countries. I think it's only possible in the context of violence that escalates and continues for a while
I don't understand you seeming to ignore the history of modern Israel. Are you holding a too liberal point of view with regard to the Palestinians? Do you not remember that every time Israel gave up something to them, that the Palestinians promptly carried out attacks against Israel and its citizens? Are you blissfully unaware that the Palestinians have continually chanted "Death to the Israelis!" and "Drive them into the sea" since the nation was formed (and before!)? I'm sure you know that history, so I can't figure out your motivation or your viewpoint. I would love to hear a defense of your position.
Stop calling Israel a colonial regime and the PA a subcontractor…you see Mr Beinart your perspective is a western one that is condescending and alien to the region; before European ideas were introduced by colonial forces like England and France no one thought like you and everything was based on religion, tribe and clan…you, my lettered friend, think everyone thinks like you..THEY DO NOT…Jews are indigenous based on history, archaeology and communal tradition to this land and have always been there and aspired to return. The PA is at fault for not nurturing reconciliation, nation building and security. Stop being a social worker and start being a realist.
"Jews are indigenous based on history, archaeology and communal tradition to this land and have always been there and aspired to return."
Do you mean that all Jews are indigenous to this land? And conversely, that all the people indigenous to this land are Jews? How do you understand indigeneity? If a person's ancestors were all living in this land 2000 years ago, at which time they were all Jews, but later ancestors were all Christians and Muslims after conversion, does that mean that the person does not belong to a people indigenous to the land?
The Jewish nation is indigenous to the land. If ancestors convert and join other, foreign, nations and abandon their Jewish nationality, they can no longer claim indigenousness.
There are no absolutes; Jews as a communal and national group are indigenous which does not mean that every one living there now is. Most Palestinian Arab Muslims and Christians have a rightful claim-I never said they did not-what is wrong is their beliefs that Jews do not have this same equally valid claim
Most Palestinians have always and continue to believe in your options 5 and 6. The reason there was no national infrastructure in 1967 territories when Israel defended itself from Jordanian and Egyptian aggression is because those respective areas were controlled by other states-notice how despite being created in 1964/65 no Palestinian nationalist group called for Jordanian and Egyptian expulsion and the creation of a Palestinian state in those areas…
Why does Peter Beinart insist on condescending ly infantilizing the PA and not holding them accountable; the whole idea behind Oslo was for them to make places like Jenin orderly and part of their civil catchment area…if they did that the IDF would not have to act alone. Mr Beinart feels he knows what’s best for the Palestinians-this is a typical form of intellectual colonialism and pandering. Face it: The PA and it’s corrupt, nepotistic and I democratic hierarchy is run like a crime family by a converted Jew who only cares about staying in power by feigning impotence in English and instructing his minions to glorify terrorists, stoke irredentism and spout anti demotic rhetoric in Arabic.
An interesting analysis of the appalling situation that the apartheid Zionist state of Israel is imposing on the Palestinian people. No doubt the Zionists who for some reason (guilt? Who knows?) hang around the comment threads here will reject the clarity of what you wrote and somehow blame Palestinians for having the temerity to live in Israel/Palestine.
Those of us around the world who want to see Palestinians allowed to return and live peacefully in their homeland must stay informed as to the malign intentions of violent Zionism and its followers who, as is miserably and painfully clear, will not stop until they have cleared Israel/Palestine of the last Palestinian. But the Palestinian movement is vigorous and popular, and it has right on its side.
Here in the UK, we can support the excellent and courageous work of Palestine Action which is successfully building local movements of direct action against the Israeli state-owned arms trade and its factories, such as Elbit Systems. The British state has responded by prosecuting these brave people, and they surely need our backing.
James, no one is "imposing" anything on the Palestinians. They are in a situation entirely of their own making through 80 years of terrorism, murder, and war crimes. No one is blaming them for "having the temerity to live in Israel/Palestine" but that kind of dishonest strawman is quite typical among Palestine supporters who are not able to approach this situation with any kind of intellectual honesty.
If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar? How about this nugget from Fatah's charter, the goal of "the eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence"?
If you want Palestinians to "live peacefully in Palestine", they're welcome to do so at any time. All they have to do is recognize Jewish people as their fellow human beings and sign on the dotted line. We're all waiting.
“ They are in a situation entirely of their own making through 80 years of terrorism, murder, and war crime.”
If that is the case, why is Israel so afraid of putting their case at the International Criminal Court. The Palestinians have no such fear.
“ If you want Palestinians to "live peacefully in Palestine", they're welcome to do so at any time.”
All Palestinians have to do is let Jewish settlers aided and abetted by Israel, to continue to steal their land, to evict them from their homes, to treat them like animals.
"If that is the case, why is Israel so afraid of putting their case at the International Criminal Court"
It is the case, and the decisions of the Israeli government in regards to unelected officials in Brussels have nothing to do with whether or not it is the case.
"All Palestinians have to do is let Jewish settlers aided and abetted by Israel, to continue to steal their land, to evict them from their homes, to treat them like animals."
In a peaceful 2SS like the ones Israel has offered Palestine multiple times, the EEEVIL settlers will either be in Israel and away from the poor innocent blameless Palestinians or under the control of the the Palestinian government so the Palestinians can enforce their laws and stop the settlers' bad behavior themselves. Either way, those things you mentioned won't happen. If you actually didn't like settler violence (I know you really do like it, because it makes Palestinians victims), you'd want peace just as much as I do.
You should stick with copying and pasting plagiarised material, Sean. Your own thoughts aren't very substantive.
I am proud to copy and paste the writings of Ilan Pappe, Avi Shlaim, Robert Herbst, Gideon Levy, Amira Hass, Peter Beinart, and many more righteous Jews, because with those writers one will always read the truth about Israel’s crimes against the Palestinians.
"Here in Israel your hands are dirty, and if you are not actively fighting against the occupation, you are supporting the occupation. Period." Ayelet Waldman & Michael Chabon."
Winters, your hands are dirty.
Ah, so when YOU copy and paste things, that's fine. But when I post my own thoughts and views, that makes me "hasbara." Got it. Thanks for explaining it to me.
And then here we go, yet another copy and paste, and this time it's the the "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality, followed by a personal attack. The favorite viewpoint of bullies and tyrants everywhere. Of course, the same logic doesn't apply to Palestinian terror and murder, right? If you're not actively fighting it, then you're against it?
Are you actively fighting Palestinian murder and terrorism, Sean?
Wouldn't you know all about bullies & tyrants, aren't there many of them in Israel? Over half a century of bullying Palestinians and when they resist you call them terrorists.
For a long time, Zionists have been propagating fear based propaganda to their followers. It's misleading and unfair to focus on what Palestinians might allegedly do in the future, while the past and present of Palestinians are filled with Israeli war crimes. These types of accusations are meant to deflect and confuse the core issues of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. The core issues of the conflict are the collective DISPOSSESSION and ETHNIC CLEANSING (compulsory population transfer) of the Palestinian people for the past 7+ decades. It should be emphasized that the conflict would have been at the same level of intensity, even if both warring parties had been Muslims, Christians, or even Jewish.
Since the inception of Zionism, its leaders have been keen on creating a "Jewish State" based on a "Jewish majority" by mass immigration of Jews to Palestine, primarily European Jews fleeing from anti-Semitic Tsarist Russia and Nazi Germany. When a "Jewish majority" was impossible to achieve, based on Jewish immigration and natural growth, Zionist leaders (such as Ben Gurion, Moshe Sharett, Ze'ev Jabotinsky, and Chaim Weizmann) concluded that "population transfer" was the only solution to what they referred to as the "Arab Problem." Year after year, the plan to ethnically cleanse Palestine of its indigenous people became known as the "transfer solution". David Ben-Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated the "transfer solution" as the following:
In a joint meeting between the Jewish Agency Executive and Zionist Action Committee on June 12th, 1938:
"With compulsory transfer we [would] have a vast area [for settlement].... I support compulsory transfer. I don't see anything immoral in it."
"If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar? "
Yes, I've heard it at many rallies. You are showing that you have misunderstood it. To Palestinians and their allies, "Palestine" is a geographic term, referring to the land delineated by the boundaries of the former Palestine Mandate. So talk of Palestine's "intentions", malign or otherwise, doesn't even make sense. The literal meaning of the slogan is that, unlike in the present, all of the land in question will be free some time in the future.
If Palestine is a geographic term, then the phrase makes no sense. Land isn't people, so land can't be "free." Unless they're talking about selling it for no cost, which seems just a little bit unlikely.
Everyone here knows what that phrase means. You can't try to mansplain something different. We all know Palestinians and their allies want Israel gone and an Arab Muslim state from the river to the sea. That's what the polls say. That's what the leadership says. That's what the phrase means. You will never be able to convince anyone of anything different, so don't even bother to try. The only person here "misunderstanding" the phrase is you.
Any thoughts on the Fatah charter quote, about a goal being "the eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence"? Care to mansplain away that one?
"If you want to talk about malign intentions, let's talk about Palestine's. "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free". Sound familiar?"
Ever heard of the "OLD TESTAMENT? Yahweh mapped out the boundaries of the promised land, Zion, and it gave to his special few, the chosen people, the Jews. Genesis 12:7, 15:18-21, 28: 13, etc.
Exodus 23:31 is more specific and pertinent in this argument as it describes the borders as marked by the Red Sea and the River Euphrates.
Is this testament OLD or the promise still holds? It's in the Jewish "Holy Book."
Ever heard of whataboutery? I'm far more interested in what Palestinians and their supporters are chanting today than what was written down thousands of years ago.
"written down thousands of years ago."
Then what claim as a Jew [if you're one, have my doubts] you got on Zion?
I'll answer your question once you acknowledge my point that Palestinians do not want peace with Israel.
Debatable. Put it this way: Jews and Arabs lived in harmony before the advent of Zionism.
Your comment about Israel having expulsion in its DNA is not only Anti Zionist but feeds into the meme in the Arab world of the expansionist and evil “ Jews.” Also, Israel accepted partition in 1948 and where not the ones who closed off The Strait of Tiran and fought as a coalition to throw the Jews in the Sea…Apartheid is also faulty and inappropriate in your thesis…Arab citizens of Israel vote and serve in the Knesset and receive state based civic services and benefits. Further Jews are indigenous to this land while White Europeans were never indigenous to South Africa
Peter's full "comment about Israel having expulsion in its DNA" is this: "Of course, Israel has in its political DNA this history of a mass expulsion at its founding, and another mass expulsion that people don’t talk about so much in 1967, and smaller scale expulsions kind of in-between."
Is there anything in there that isn't true? Or is your objection that he shouldn't make factual statements that are "Anti Zionist"?
Expulsion must be viewed in its proper historical context; yes a segment of the Palestinians was expelled during these periods as a result of their refusal to accept partition and inter communal violence …ignoring the context and related Mizrachi Jewish riots and expulsions/fleeing is selectively viewing history…Anti Zionism is simply the belief that Israel should not take its rightful place among the worlds nations and is often (not always) a tool of anti semites and chauvinistic salafists or political ideologies. Zionism is nothing more than the political articulation of our 2,000 year desire to return to our ancient nation state as a polity. By the way rejecting it and being a political apologist for the PA is naïve at best and a cynical weak collaborator at worst. The Satmar have embraced the Palestinian cause based on their own naïveté and desire to preserve their religious based “cult.”
Also, you mention Gaza …where are the settlements and lack of a governing authority there…it just goes to show how faulty your logic is; even when there are no Jews and a group controls the territory no reconciliation or peace is possible. By the way you using a Jewish term to describe the celebration of the martyrdom of a “ Shahid(a)” just illustrates your ignorance and ethnocentrism …how would you like it if they called Baruch Goldstein a “ Shahid”?
Spot on! New piece in The Nation today making the same case:
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/masafer-yatta-destruction-palestine-israel/?fbclid=IwAR0mBKVFc-BVlbQMJIfMwBDvFlbFDw93-1RSqW1DCXToNjIrJjKVEKBYfDw
Such an important and timely discussion. In the meantime, we deal on the ground within the Theater of Absurd:
https://sbahour.medium.com/my-clown-is-in-an-israeli-prison-again-2219690a866e?sk=19625ad412fb14f7bbca31c710687a0b
"The indoctrination of Jewish communities everywhere has become part of the problem."
Careful, Sam. You're supposed to say "Zionist". The black heart is being revealed again.
No, in this context, "Jewish" makes more sense than "Zionist". Sam is talking about Zionist indoctrination in Jewish communities specifically. The difference with Zionist indoctrination in non-Jewish communities is that those communities are not indoctrinated with the idea that the state of Israel acts in their name.
So you agree with him that Jewish communities everywhere are being indoctrinated with evil Zionist ideologies?
Biden should at least not invite Netanyahu to Washington given he can't do much else
Joe Biden is more likely to congratulate Netanyahu on being a strong and decisive leader.
Israeli Jews and Israeli Druze voters are pushed rightward due to 75 years of non acceptance, idiotic and faulty rhetoric like yours and terror. The Naqba was for the most part caused by Arab aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism. What is unthinkable is how you pander to Arabs and hold Israel to a Roberts Rules standard in the Middle East…NO AMOUNT OF SURRENDER AND COLLABORATION WILL MAKE THE PALESTINIAN STREET ACCEPT YOU…WAKE UP AND DEMAND RESPECT THROUGH ACCOUNTABILITY AND STRENGTH
"The Naqba was for the most part caused by Arab aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism."
Oh really, it was the Palestinians' own fault? Not caused by, say, Jewish aggression and religious and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism? I look forward to reading your book where you develop this thesis.
You should check out this poll of Palestinians from the Palestinian Center of Survey and Research.
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/940
"On the occasion of the Nakba, the overwhelming majority places the blame for it on non-Palestinian parties while only 7% believe that the weakness of the Palestinian people is primarily responsible. The "weak and conspiratorial Arab role" comes first with 38%, followed by the British Mandate with 36%, and Zionist organizations and movements with 16%."
Only 16% of Palestinians blame Zionists (or as you would say, Jewish aggression and ethnocentric intolerance and chauvinism) for the Nakba. The vast majority blame other Arabs and the British. Very few, of course, take personal responsibility for their own fate, no surprise there.
The Jewish state of Israel accepted partition and those opposed (Irgun) were violently incorporated into IDF and the new communal and political infrastructure. Is it chauvinistic to demand equality among the worlds nations. Is it wrong to defend yourself or should we have all gone directly to the sea or ovens…I don’t need to write a book to know what was right and wrong. In any inter communal struggle their is chauvinism and there will be instances of aggression…you and your type holding Jews to a different standard are either stuck in a ghetto mentality or hopelessly unrealistic…if you attack me and I decide to expel you for my national aspirations you are partially if not mostly to blame
I honestly think that all European and American Jews should be expelled from PALESTINE, especially Americans.
Americans, both Jews and non-J, save for a few level headed like Peter, have emboldened the purported victims of the Holocaust by funding them and supplying them with weapons to steal land and kill the poor, benighted and dark Arabs.
So religious, yet so callous. Thank god I'm atheist.
I hope that day comes.
Thank you so much for saying what Peter and his supporters are all really thinking. It's greatly appreciated, especially the line about the "purported victims of the Holocaust." Peter's readership love to wrap themselves in a warm blanket of smug moral superiority, it's refreshing to see the black heart hiding underneath that blanket.
You're welcome!
Just to be clear not "what they're thinking", it's what some vehemently believe and hope for.
*See Holocaust Industry, Fienkelstein for "purported victims."
24 hours later, no condemnations or even commentary from Peter, Sean, Rebecca, Paul, and the rest. What's that phrase again? "Silence is complicity"?
What commentary or condemnation are you looking for?
Your thoughts on USofW's statement above that "all European and American Jews should be expelled from PALESTINE, especially Americans" and that "Americans, both Jews and non-J, save for a few level headed like Peter, have emboldened the purported victims of the Holocaust by funding them and supplying them with weapons to steal land and kill the poor, benighted and dark Arabs."
Have your delicate eyes not come across that POV in print from Palestinian sympathizers before? It’s the Israel/Palestine conflict—it’s partisans regularly say harsh and uncharitable things about the other side. Reread some of your own posts, for example.
I read USoW’s opening salvo as a somewhat emotionally-wrought and mean-spirited response to the subject of the article, namely the prospects of unjust forced Arab expulsions from Palestine—as if to say “oh yeah? Well, it oughta be the non-native Jews who get expelled instead!”
Okay, it’s someone’s opinion. Substack is a pro-free speech platform. Why is anyone other than the poster morally accountable for it?
The second point, which I read as being about how Americans have actively facilitated Israel’s dispossession of Palestinians out of some sort of reparations regime for Holocaust victims and motivated in part by an inherent anti-Arab racism, is another opinion. It’s one that I think has considerable merit, although I would not have phrased it the way he did. But what of it? Did you read it differently?
Stunningly, Gaza is so outside your mind and worldview now that it never even merited a mention as one of the territories occupied in 1967. This also means you missed out on one of the major options left to Israel for the populated Palestinian areas of the West Bank--Gazification: Ghettoize, besiege and throw away the key for decades. Similar to the model that has been applied to the neighborhoods behind the wall in Jerusalem as well. Isn't it more likely that the Jenin op is laying the groundwork for this fate for these West Bank cities?
Great points. I agree with that as a more likely policy trajectory than mass forced transfers that would suffer from the unavoidably disastrous political optics for Israel.
Areas A&B would evolve into smaller isolated Gazastans in the W/B around population centers, each with their own sealed security perimeter, and annexation and civilian control everywhere else. Although most observers would probably use the word “Bantustan” drawing obvious South Africa parallels.
But one figures the RW Israeli govt would believe that the frog could be boiled slowly enough to avoid anything like the images of masses of human beings being herded to the borders that would be politically ruinous.
Netanyahu Knows he can count on Washington’s Complicity . According to the campaign watchdog site Open Secrets, while he was in the Senate Biden was the largest recipient of pro-Israel PAC money: $4,226,604—almost twice as much as the second-highest recipient, Hillary Clinton. . .
Any thoughts Jack.
Oh, is this supposed to be for me? I think you should answer my question, and then I'll be happy to answer any of yours.