Our call this week will be back at our regular time, Friday at Noon EST. Our guest will be Jamil Dakwar, director of the Human Rights Program at the American Civil Liberties Union and a former senior attorney at Adalah, The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel
Joel--I've spent some time laying out the argument for why Israel-Palestine should be a binational state for all its citizens based on leqal equality. You can read that here. https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine. As for the suggestion that I take that position because it's more lucrative and a great career path, I can assure you that I'd be speaking at many more college campuses (not to mention synagogues and Jewish institutions) were I a defender of Israel's policies.
Peter, as always I appreciate your thoughtful, sincere, and generative post. I'm sad that some of the replies to your comments smack of smug intolerance and defensiveness. I'm grateful for you work and your willingness to express vulnerability in the face of the unjust attacks lobbed at you. You are a real mensch.
Beinart, that voice speaking to you inside is your conscience. Like you said, you are a Jew. You are a member of the Jewish people. Feeling deep in your soul, in your DNA, that you are member of a family, and families stick together and help each other. In your soul, you know, that Israelis are not oppressive apartheid racists. In your soul you know they are working as hard as they can stop murderous terrorists from killing them. It's easy to ignore your conscience when Israelis are successful at stopping the terrorists. now, though, it's almost impossible.
And that bad feeling you've been experiencing? It's called cognitive dissonance. That's wherein new information (like Palestine's evil being shown to the world yet again) conflicts with your beliefs; in this case that Palestine is a virtuous eternal victim that never does anything wrong. If you want to alleviate that cognitive dissonance, wake up and join the rest of us the real world.
Peter, I have bad news for you. You ARE the wicked son, and you have been for most of your career. You have innumerable columns in this Substack and elsewhere about how Jews don't have the same rights as other peoples and you have repeatedly turned a blind eye to Jewish suffering while constantly swallowing the Palestinian narrative.
I'm glad that you're finally starting to wake up to the truth. It's disappointing that it took seven murdered innocent Jews in the streets of Jerusalem to get you there, but I'm glad it did. One wonders why it didn't happen after the Itamar massacre twelve years ago or the suicide bombing campaigns twenty years ago or any of Palestine's MANY crimes against humanity in between, but I'm glad that it's finally happened for you.
That being said, you still have some work to do, because you have it exactly backwards. It is in fact Palestine that is built upon a structure of racist, illegal violence and because there is so much racist illegal violence against Jews coming from Palestine, a response from Israel is inevitable and in fact a good thing. Palestinians building a society based around murdering Jews and Jews stopping them from murdering Jews
IS
NOT
"OPPRESSION."
And every time you say it is "oppression," you are repeating the false, malicious, dishonest narrative, and in doing so you are bolstering the Palestinian lie and enabling the further murder of Jews. You can disagree with the behavior of individual Israeli soldiers and individual incidents, but the occupation as a whole exists to stop Palestinian murders like this one in Jerusalem. You have it exactly backwards. The occupation is a response to the murders, not the cause. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the I/P conflict's history is already aware of that.
I'm going to leave you with a few links that you left out of your essay but I think is relevant to this discussion, just in case anyone on this thread actually believes the attacker was a 'lone wolf' and Palestinian society doesn't actually love him and his murderous deed.
The Palestinians could have had their own country time and time again, but their leaders have chosen the path and propaganda campaign that one day they will kick the Jews out and control the land from the river to the sea. And for the corrupt leaders, why not? It’s a good gig funneling humanitarian aid to themselves.
After being repeatedly rejected and terrorized, Israelis have become less compromising. After all, how many times can one hit their head against the wall before saying “no more“? The onus is on the Palestinians to make it clear that they choose peace. I remain hopeful that a courageous leader will emerge that recognizes that living in their own country will result in a better future for his people. If and when that happens, regardless of which Israeli government is in place, both peoples will thrive.
Pretty basic:
1) accept Israel’s right to exist (and please, don't say "oslo" -- actually accepting Israel in practice).
2) agree to a state of their own next to Israel
3) agree to a “right of return” to a new state of Palestine and not to Israel
How exciting for you.!!!! By simply stating that you are against a state for Jews, you get invited to speak at college campuses and pseudo intellectual discussions concerning the “evil” Jews. Not even considering the many liberal evening discussions at “right thinking” New York homes. I am certain that this gives you a certain feeling of self satisfaction since you are now an intellectual whom certain people want to hear. I guess that you want Israel to be a state for all of its citizens similar to Lebanon. I wonder how that plan turned out?
Unfortunately we Jewish citizens of Israel have no intention of allowing anyone
I hear your agony Peter, and we as Palestinians share the same when our young react to all these decades of structural violence with a violent response of their own. That's why anyone who loves Israel today, the nation state, not the mythical biblical entity, must act to stop Israel before it gets much worse. This is why I recently wrote:
As a non-Jew and a non-American, but someone who spent years in Europe and North Africa, I believe that many American Jews still don't under stand how dangerous Israel's corrosive behavior and America's support of it are for the Jewish people in general. When a "bad son" raises his voice to protest the actions of a family that has become corrupted he is not a pariah but a hero who saves the community as a whole.
Peter, Commiserations and some thoughts. Critical thinking requires the examination of the myths people choose to believe. Are those myths valid? What makes them so? A myth involves a broth of thoughts in which people swim, too often, without questioning whether any of the ideas, strictures, rules, beliefs and practices included have a valid ground on which to rest. Unlike the comment below I experience your exploration of your relationship to Judaism to be critically important. It steps beyond the owned and onerous ideology that the "broth of suffering" that those who are of the Jewish tribe have experienced supersedes the same broth that any other tribe finds itself experiencing. In a schoolyard peer pressure and bullying crush differing views. Why, to diminish and/or take away a persons right to dignity and their space to express views different than those in which the bully "believes"? The inherent problem rests in the fact that the bully's ideology steeps them in a broth they refuse to examine. Ironically they accuse those that they bully of being the instigators of the bullying. It takes a great deal of courage for anyone to step outside the broth in which their tribe has been steeped If you do you may be ostracized, criticized, belittled and persecuted for your views. You may even be threatened: ideologically, physically ,psychologically, emotionally and spiritually. You quoted Maimonides. Obviously you feel the pain of speaking to your own tribe in a voice they do not wish to entertain. Does that make it wicked? Though it may seem grandiose this would be my question to Maimonides and you - if his musings applied to the Prophets of the Torah where would Judaism be today? Did any of your tribe feel they were 'wicked 'when their waywardness was pointed out to them? There are many Winters of discontent; hopefully speaking to your own tribe in a quiet, respectful voice will dispel the chill and indignity they show to you - and others- when they threaten you're right to examine any 'broth' in which you might find yourself swimming.
I think you do a good job with balancing these two things. You never try to justify the violence but try to understand and explain it. That's the right approach IMO.
Thank you for this, Sam. If only Israeli and diaspora Jewish leaders were wise enough to take your advice.
Joel--I've spent some time laying out the argument for why Israel-Palestine should be a binational state for all its citizens based on leqal equality. You can read that here. https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine. As for the suggestion that I take that position because it's more lucrative and a great career path, I can assure you that I'd be speaking at many more college campuses (not to mention synagogues and Jewish institutions) were I a defender of Israel's policies.
Peter, as always I appreciate your thoughtful, sincere, and generative post. I'm sad that some of the replies to your comments smack of smug intolerance and defensiveness. I'm grateful for you work and your willingness to express vulnerability in the face of the unjust attacks lobbed at you. You are a real mensch.
Peter, I think you articulated beautifully the dilemma many of us Jews feel.
It makes me sad to see the snarky (at the nicest) posts on a thread that grapples with very serious matters.
Beinart, that voice speaking to you inside is your conscience. Like you said, you are a Jew. You are a member of the Jewish people. Feeling deep in your soul, in your DNA, that you are member of a family, and families stick together and help each other. In your soul, you know, that Israelis are not oppressive apartheid racists. In your soul you know they are working as hard as they can stop murderous terrorists from killing them. It's easy to ignore your conscience when Israelis are successful at stopping the terrorists. now, though, it's almost impossible.
And that bad feeling you've been experiencing? It's called cognitive dissonance. That's wherein new information (like Palestine's evil being shown to the world yet again) conflicts with your beliefs; in this case that Palestine is a virtuous eternal victim that never does anything wrong. If you want to alleviate that cognitive dissonance, wake up and join the rest of us the real world.
Peter, I have bad news for you. You ARE the wicked son, and you have been for most of your career. You have innumerable columns in this Substack and elsewhere about how Jews don't have the same rights as other peoples and you have repeatedly turned a blind eye to Jewish suffering while constantly swallowing the Palestinian narrative.
I'm glad that you're finally starting to wake up to the truth. It's disappointing that it took seven murdered innocent Jews in the streets of Jerusalem to get you there, but I'm glad it did. One wonders why it didn't happen after the Itamar massacre twelve years ago or the suicide bombing campaigns twenty years ago or any of Palestine's MANY crimes against humanity in between, but I'm glad that it's finally happened for you.
That being said, you still have some work to do, because you have it exactly backwards. It is in fact Palestine that is built upon a structure of racist, illegal violence and because there is so much racist illegal violence against Jews coming from Palestine, a response from Israel is inevitable and in fact a good thing. Palestinians building a society based around murdering Jews and Jews stopping them from murdering Jews
IS
NOT
"OPPRESSION."
And every time you say it is "oppression," you are repeating the false, malicious, dishonest narrative, and in doing so you are bolstering the Palestinian lie and enabling the further murder of Jews. You can disagree with the behavior of individual Israeli soldiers and individual incidents, but the occupation as a whole exists to stop Palestinian murders like this one in Jerusalem. You have it exactly backwards. The occupation is a response to the murders, not the cause. Anyone with a basic knowledge of the I/P conflict's history is already aware of that.
I'm going to leave you with a few links that you left out of your essay but I think is relevant to this discussion, just in case anyone on this thread actually believes the attacker was a 'lone wolf' and Palestinian society doesn't actually love him and his murderous deed.
Palestinians cheering and celebrating the Jerusalem attack: https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-celebrate-jerusalem-synagogue-massacre-with-fireworks-sweets/
Al Jazeera honoring the attacker: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cn92iUev1K5/
Fatah praising the attacker and cheering the killing: https://palwatch.org/page/32592
Second attack, perpetrated by 13-year-old boy: https://www.timesofisrael.com/2-seriously-wounded-in-another-shooting-attack-in-jerusalem-attacker-neutralized/
Thank you
Thank you
The Palestinians could have had their own country time and time again, but their leaders have chosen the path and propaganda campaign that one day they will kick the Jews out and control the land from the river to the sea. And for the corrupt leaders, why not? It’s a good gig funneling humanitarian aid to themselves.
After being repeatedly rejected and terrorized, Israelis have become less compromising. After all, how many times can one hit their head against the wall before saying “no more“? The onus is on the Palestinians to make it clear that they choose peace. I remain hopeful that a courageous leader will emerge that recognizes that living in their own country will result in a better future for his people. If and when that happens, regardless of which Israeli government is in place, both peoples will thrive.
Pretty basic:
1) accept Israel’s right to exist (and please, don't say "oslo" -- actually accepting Israel in practice).
2) agree to a state of their own next to Israel
3) agree to a “right of return” to a new state of Palestine and not to Israel
How exciting for you.!!!! By simply stating that you are against a state for Jews, you get invited to speak at college campuses and pseudo intellectual discussions concerning the “evil” Jews. Not even considering the many liberal evening discussions at “right thinking” New York homes. I am certain that this gives you a certain feeling of self satisfaction since you are now an intellectual whom certain people want to hear. I guess that you want Israel to be a state for all of its citizens similar to Lebanon. I wonder how that plan turned out?
Unfortunately we Jewish citizens of Israel have no intention of allowing anyone
How incredibly honest. Thank you. Thank you.
I hear your agony Peter, and we as Palestinians share the same when our young react to all these decades of structural violence with a violent response of their own. That's why anyone who loves Israel today, the nation state, not the mythical biblical entity, must act to stop Israel before it gets much worse. This is why I recently wrote:
https://sbahour.medium.com/jews-of-the-world-unite-b515da78dad8?sk=3907e148eb84ba34e9affe613e48fc82
So beautifully articulated. I struggle so much with this as well.
As a non-Jew and a non-American, but someone who spent years in Europe and North Africa, I believe that many American Jews still don't under stand how dangerous Israel's corrosive behavior and America's support of it are for the Jewish people in general. When a "bad son" raises his voice to protest the actions of a family that has become corrupted he is not a pariah but a hero who saves the community as a whole.
Peter, Commiserations and some thoughts. Critical thinking requires the examination of the myths people choose to believe. Are those myths valid? What makes them so? A myth involves a broth of thoughts in which people swim, too often, without questioning whether any of the ideas, strictures, rules, beliefs and practices included have a valid ground on which to rest. Unlike the comment below I experience your exploration of your relationship to Judaism to be critically important. It steps beyond the owned and onerous ideology that the "broth of suffering" that those who are of the Jewish tribe have experienced supersedes the same broth that any other tribe finds itself experiencing. In a schoolyard peer pressure and bullying crush differing views. Why, to diminish and/or take away a persons right to dignity and their space to express views different than those in which the bully "believes"? The inherent problem rests in the fact that the bully's ideology steeps them in a broth they refuse to examine. Ironically they accuse those that they bully of being the instigators of the bullying. It takes a great deal of courage for anyone to step outside the broth in which their tribe has been steeped If you do you may be ostracized, criticized, belittled and persecuted for your views. You may even be threatened: ideologically, physically ,psychologically, emotionally and spiritually. You quoted Maimonides. Obviously you feel the pain of speaking to your own tribe in a voice they do not wish to entertain. Does that make it wicked? Though it may seem grandiose this would be my question to Maimonides and you - if his musings applied to the Prophets of the Torah where would Judaism be today? Did any of your tribe feel they were 'wicked 'when their waywardness was pointed out to them? There are many Winters of discontent; hopefully speaking to your own tribe in a quiet, respectful voice will dispel the chill and indignity they show to you - and others- when they threaten you're right to examine any 'broth' in which you might find yourself swimming.
I think you do a good job with balancing these two things. You never try to justify the violence but try to understand and explain it. That's the right approach IMO.