Our Zoom call this week, for paid subscribers, will be at our regular time: Friday at Noon EDT. This Friday, instead of a guest, we’ll have a conversation. I’ll ask folks to put questions or reflections in the chat and do my best to answer them. We did this once before and it seemed to work well. Generally I prefer to let our guests do most of the talking but this is an opportunity for us to talk as a community.
Peter's Jewish identity is once again bumping up against his leftism.
He calls for leftist Jews to unconditionally love other Jews, even Jews they disagree with. That's great! Who doesn't love love? But he's not saying that leftist Jews should unconditionally love everyone. He's saying they should unconditionally love other Jews.
This is an inherently tribalist idea. Peter wants Jews to treat other Jews differently than everyone else. He cannot deny, and freely admits, that "Jews have historically seen ourselves as a people" and this idea of Jews as a family is inherent and fundamental to what it means to be Jewish.
This is a common idea among many nations/peoples/tribes/groups. Gay people help each other, and prioritize the welfare of members of their group over other individuals who are not in the group. So do Black people. So do women.
The problem, though, is that Peter is picking and choosing when it's OK for Jews to have this kind of solidarity. Loving each other? Fine. Having a Jewish state? Apartheid and Jewish supremacism. Where exactly is the dividing line? Does Peter oppose Jewish college student unions? Jewish fraternities? Jewish businesses? Jewish universities? Jewish scholarships?
How much solidarity are Jews allowed to have with each other before Peter Beinart pulls a 180 and accuses them of apartheid and Jewish supremacism?
We are all connected. I’m not Jewish, but Jewish freedom and flourishing is connected to mine. So is Palestinian freedom and flourishing connected to mine and to Israel itself. It’s never been about one tribe trumping another, it’s always been about flourishing for all. Time to prove it.
Grieving for Israelis today and wishing them every freedom from Netanyahu’s self serving agenda. Feel the same way about The Palestinians. It’s beautiful and important to preserve our unique identities, but if our identities within are so insecure that they become dependent on our outside circumstances.. then we’re only ever as free as our circumstances. The only way to show each other scarcity and difference are not real threats is to bring that love. It’s over said, but so much of this really is a massive trauma response cycling itself out indifferent groups over and over.. and it is the white racist Europeans who started it all if we’re honest. England’s “partitions” all over the world have a pretty bleak track record.
But ultimately we are responsible for our own healing. There are two kingdom economies. Do we choose to live in one where the only answer to preserve our own life is to dominate and kill others or to say we have enough and share our power and resources with one another? Sacrificial love is the only thing that breaks the cycle of violence, scarcity, and death. Israelis and Palestinians have my support, maybe not the governments sometimes, but the people always do. Love (not accommodation for harmful coping mechanisms to preserve the ego, but recognition, care, and working for the flourishing of the goodness and gifts that is within every person) doesn’t always make sense in the kingdom of man, but it is the only answer that ends its economy of scarcity and death.
Standing with you and for all.. even those that threaten peace. May they find peace within. Love is the only thing that can deliver that. We project what’s inside of us. May that be shalom… within and all around.
That's great that Beinart now wants to love other Jews, including Jews he's castigated in the past like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. Because right now, across the world, Jewish students are being bullied and abused by their fellow students for the crime of being Jewish. And these fellow students aren't white supremacists. They're "progressive" and "pro-Palestinian" members of groups like SJP, BDS, and CAIR. Beinart's fellow travelers. The NUS study out of Britain proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt, and students in the United States have many similar stories.
Beinart, if you'd like to lead by example, how about you use your Substack platform to condemn these hate groups and express solidarity with Jewish students who have just as much of a right to be pro-Israel (or neutral) as an Arab student does to be pro-Palestinian? I've never seen you tweet about this issue, but I'm willing to be wrong about that.
If that's too hard, though, maybe you could start small and just condemn the anti-Semitism and bullying that seems to be infesting your own Substack's talkback section over the past a couples of months? And I mean really condemn, not just make mealy mouthed apologist statements like "I think he means the Jewish leadership when he said "Jews" so it's OK." Like we discussed last week, your record is what really shows your character.
Your pedantic article about President Herzog is another example of your misguided and ideologically motivated dribble; erecting a wall to protect Israelis is the sad last choice for Israeli Jews after decades of Palestinian terrorism (where should it be built on the upper west side?). You refer to Herzog as an “ethno-nationalist”…is it wrong to want to keep Israel, our historical home and indigenous land,a Zionist based polity or should we allow it to be cynically manipulated by the irredentist motives of Ayman Odeh…You see Professor you would have Israel play by one set of rules and Arabs by another…your cognitive and academic gymnastics do not impress me …they lead me to feel sorry for your elitist ghetto based neurosis …when will you demand Palestinian accountability and realize Zionism is our indigenous movement and that we like all other nations deserve a safe and secure national home without apologizing to anyone
People who commit horrible war crimes like the Palestinians should apologize of course. As for a safe and secure home: only the Palestinians and their anti-Zionist allies think otherwise.
Anything the Palestinians have ever done in resisting occupation, the Israeli Jews terror has been much worse. Any honest decent person will confirm that.
Israelis and Palestinians need to apologize to each other. But let’s be fair, Israel is the more powerful actor with its knee perpetually on the Palestinian’s neck. They can barely breathe. Until that knee comes off the neck, apologies are just lip service.
Israel only has its "knee on the Palestinian's neck" because of all of Palestine's horrible war crimes. Read your history: before the First Intifada the IDF was not particularly present in the territories, there were no checkpoints or security fence, and the two sides freely traveled between Israel and the territories. It was Palestine's mass murder and terrorism that brought us to the current situation.
Let's also not forget that there never would have been a conflict in the first place if Palestine and its Arab allies hadn't rejected Israel's very existence and sought to genocide its inhabitants. Although Israel isn't perfect, the 'knee on the neck' didn't come out of nowhere. Any other nation in Israel's position would have done the exact same thing, if not worse.
This is a beautiful idea with all humans, didn’t Jesus and the Beatles say the same? love love love.
Unfortunately it speaks only to “the converted” meaning to Love (not christianisme). The masses are not ready for that. Unless they start practicing regular meditation...
Peter, the question I'd like you to address is why do you place the onus on Israel to change? The Palestinians could have had their own naton for over 75 years -- but have rejected it. Instead, their leaders propgandize their people that one day, the land will all be their's, and that resistance is the only way forward. Meanwhile, the people instead get left farther and farther behind as Israel and other Arab countries move forward. Why do the Palestinians continue down a losers' path instead of making peace? The formula is well known: accept Israel's right to exist, accept living in their own country next to Israel, and acknowledge that the only "right of return" of descendants of the 1948 war is to a new State of Palestine, not to Israel.
“ The formula is well known: accept Israel's right to exist, accept living in their own country next to Israel, and acknowledge that the only "right of return" of descendants of the 1948 war is to a new State of Palestine, not to Israel.”
Richard, Israel’s formula is well known. Why do you think all those settlements and settlers are living illegally in the West Bank?
The only way Palestinians can have a country of their own, is for all of the settlers to leave and take up residence in Israel proper, and that’s not going to happen. So the right of return doesn’t come into play for obvious reasons.
I do believe that Palestinians accept Israel’s right to exist, but not at their expense.
Getting to Israel’s formula. Israel wants to steal as much Palestinian land with as few Palestinians living there. That’s why they have been evicting them from their homes and treating the Palestinians like animals.
“Peter, the question I'd like you to address is why do you place the onus on Israel to change?”
If I could presume to answer that question. The onus on Israel to change, is because they have all the power, the Palestinians have none.
We have argued about peace plans before, so no need to repeat ourselves.
In sports, you change strategies when you are losing. The Palestinians have been playing a losing game for 75 years. It’s not Israel that needs to change. It’s the Palestinians that must change their game plan of rejectionism, terrorism, and refusing the idea of Jews and Israelis living in their own country.
Israel with one of the most powerful army's in the Middle East, has been playing a dirty game for 75 years with the help of the most powerful country in the world. What have the Palestinians got, very little.
In poker terms, Israel holds all the cards, Richard.
Sean, that’s true that Israel has the most powerful army. They could destroy the Palestinians and every other Arab country if they chose. But for 75 years they have tried to make peace. The question is why won’t the Palestinians? When you are in the loser’s spot, your negotiating position is pretty weak. The Palestinian demands for all of Israel -- the “right of return“, the made up policy for the made up definition of refugee, is a known non-starter. Israel used to have a peace now majority. The Palestinians ruined that. If they want to change, they must explicitly say so. The onus is on them.
I feel bad for Palestinian citizens. They have had the most corrupt leaders for their entire history. Why do you think that they get so little aid sent to them by the wealthy oil countries that surround them? Because their fellow Arabs know that the money won’t go to help the people, it goes to the corrupt leaders and keeps them in power.
From my limited knowledge I think Albert Einstein is a great example of a Jew who both loved his people and defended Palestinian rights-I’d love to see you explore his life and legacy here.
Sorry Peter, I can't help with the love business, but just a few points I'd like to make on the annual contribution from America of 3.8 billion dollars, which is mainly used up with supplied armaments.
In my opinion trying to make the payments conditional or even stopping them, doesn't really worry Israel. After all 3.8 billion is miniscule in the greater scheme of things in Israel. What Israel would be more worried about is losing the support of the US Congress, and the cover which the US provides at the UN.
In the short term I don't think there will be any changes there, but in the longer term that support will evaporate, when the American people eventually realise that their elected representative's are being corrupted by foreign agents, in particular AIPAC among others. When that time comes there will be hell to pay.
AIPAC is made up of Americans. They are no more "foreign agents" than Rashida Tlaib is. I'm sorry Jews exercising their lobbying rights upsets you so much. Hopefully you'll get your way in the future and American Jews will have no voice in the government whatsoever.
If you knew that, then why are you referring to Americans exercising their democratic rights to lobby the government as "foreign agents"? I thought it was ignorance, but now it seems more like dishonesty.
Doesn't AIPAC lobby for a foreign government, hence the foreign agents. I am sulking now because you said I was dishonest, so I am done commenting on this thread. Let the love in begin.
That's not what it means to be a foreign agent. Look it up. I didn't say you were dishonest, I said your statement was dishonest. But you directly called me a hasbara shill last thread, so I couldn't care less if your feelings were hurt. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
This time I am going to strongly disagree; a long time ago during my youth, we all knew that the day of collision with the orthodox Jews and the “right” would come, but because of "Shlom Bayit" (peace in the house) we agree that it is not the time. I come to the US in 1970 to study Architecture but ended up working for the Jewish community, where I observed over the last 40 years the mantra of "Shlom Bayit." Still, this mantra enabled the addicts' extreme part of us to lead the country to where we are now. The lesson is freedom, enlightenment, and pluralism delay is like justice delay and always ends up wrongly. The pioneers who came to Israel to create a new reality and characters of the Jewish people are now losing their dreams because they allow the uncompromised part of the Jewish world to get into the self-destruct mode they and we are in.
Peter's Jewish identity is once again bumping up against his leftism.
He calls for leftist Jews to unconditionally love other Jews, even Jews they disagree with. That's great! Who doesn't love love? But he's not saying that leftist Jews should unconditionally love everyone. He's saying they should unconditionally love other Jews.
This is an inherently tribalist idea. Peter wants Jews to treat other Jews differently than everyone else. He cannot deny, and freely admits, that "Jews have historically seen ourselves as a people" and this idea of Jews as a family is inherent and fundamental to what it means to be Jewish.
This is a common idea among many nations/peoples/tribes/groups. Gay people help each other, and prioritize the welfare of members of their group over other individuals who are not in the group. So do Black people. So do women.
The problem, though, is that Peter is picking and choosing when it's OK for Jews to have this kind of solidarity. Loving each other? Fine. Having a Jewish state? Apartheid and Jewish supremacism. Where exactly is the dividing line? Does Peter oppose Jewish college student unions? Jewish fraternities? Jewish businesses? Jewish universities? Jewish scholarships?
How much solidarity are Jews allowed to have with each other before Peter Beinart pulls a 180 and accuses them of apartheid and Jewish supremacism?
great idea
Thank you, I know.
Beautifully said. Thank you.
We are all connected. I’m not Jewish, but Jewish freedom and flourishing is connected to mine. So is Palestinian freedom and flourishing connected to mine and to Israel itself. It’s never been about one tribe trumping another, it’s always been about flourishing for all. Time to prove it.
Grieving for Israelis today and wishing them every freedom from Netanyahu’s self serving agenda. Feel the same way about The Palestinians. It’s beautiful and important to preserve our unique identities, but if our identities within are so insecure that they become dependent on our outside circumstances.. then we’re only ever as free as our circumstances. The only way to show each other scarcity and difference are not real threats is to bring that love. It’s over said, but so much of this really is a massive trauma response cycling itself out indifferent groups over and over.. and it is the white racist Europeans who started it all if we’re honest. England’s “partitions” all over the world have a pretty bleak track record.
But ultimately we are responsible for our own healing. There are two kingdom economies. Do we choose to live in one where the only answer to preserve our own life is to dominate and kill others or to say we have enough and share our power and resources with one another? Sacrificial love is the only thing that breaks the cycle of violence, scarcity, and death. Israelis and Palestinians have my support, maybe not the governments sometimes, but the people always do. Love (not accommodation for harmful coping mechanisms to preserve the ego, but recognition, care, and working for the flourishing of the goodness and gifts that is within every person) doesn’t always make sense in the kingdom of man, but it is the only answer that ends its economy of scarcity and death.
Standing with you and for all.. even those that threaten peace. May they find peace within. Love is the only thing that can deliver that. We project what’s inside of us. May that be shalom… within and all around.
That's great that Beinart now wants to love other Jews, including Jews he's castigated in the past like Ben-Gvir and Smotrich. Because right now, across the world, Jewish students are being bullied and abused by their fellow students for the crime of being Jewish. And these fellow students aren't white supremacists. They're "progressive" and "pro-Palestinian" members of groups like SJP, BDS, and CAIR. Beinart's fellow travelers. The NUS study out of Britain proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt, and students in the United States have many similar stories.
Beinart, if you'd like to lead by example, how about you use your Substack platform to condemn these hate groups and express solidarity with Jewish students who have just as much of a right to be pro-Israel (or neutral) as an Arab student does to be pro-Palestinian? I've never seen you tweet about this issue, but I'm willing to be wrong about that.
If that's too hard, though, maybe you could start small and just condemn the anti-Semitism and bullying that seems to be infesting your own Substack's talkback section over the past a couples of months? And I mean really condemn, not just make mealy mouthed apologist statements like "I think he means the Jewish leadership when he said "Jews" so it's OK." Like we discussed last week, your record is what really shows your character.
Your pedantic article about President Herzog is another example of your misguided and ideologically motivated dribble; erecting a wall to protect Israelis is the sad last choice for Israeli Jews after decades of Palestinian terrorism (where should it be built on the upper west side?). You refer to Herzog as an “ethno-nationalist”…is it wrong to want to keep Israel, our historical home and indigenous land,a Zionist based polity or should we allow it to be cynically manipulated by the irredentist motives of Ayman Odeh…You see Professor you would have Israel play by one set of rules and Arabs by another…your cognitive and academic gymnastics do not impress me …they lead me to feel sorry for your elitist ghetto based neurosis …when will you demand Palestinian accountability and realize Zionism is our indigenous movement and that we like all other nations deserve a safe and secure national home without apologizing to anyone
Everyone deserves a safe and secure home without apologising to anyone, even the Palestinians, yes?
People who commit horrible war crimes like the Palestinians should apologize of course. As for a safe and secure home: only the Palestinians and their anti-Zionist allies think otherwise.
Anything the Palestinians have ever done in resisting occupation, the Israeli Jews terror has been much worse. Any honest decent person will confirm that.
Do you agree the Palestinians have committed horrible war crimes and should apologize? Yes or no?
Israelis and Palestinians need to apologize to each other. But let’s be fair, Israel is the more powerful actor with its knee perpetually on the Palestinian’s neck. They can barely breathe. Until that knee comes off the neck, apologies are just lip service.
Israel only has its "knee on the Palestinian's neck" because of all of Palestine's horrible war crimes. Read your history: before the First Intifada the IDF was not particularly present in the territories, there were no checkpoints or security fence, and the two sides freely traveled between Israel and the territories. It was Palestine's mass murder and terrorism that brought us to the current situation.
Let's also not forget that there never would have been a conflict in the first place if Palestine and its Arab allies hadn't rejected Israel's very existence and sought to genocide its inhabitants. Although Israel isn't perfect, the 'knee on the neck' didn't come out of nowhere. Any other nation in Israel's position would have done the exact same thing, if not worse.
How many times should they be offered a state and say no because they don’t want two states before you put things in the right historical perspective
This is a beautiful idea with all humans, didn’t Jesus and the Beatles say the same? love love love.
Unfortunately it speaks only to “the converted” meaning to Love (not christianisme). The masses are not ready for that. Unless they start practicing regular meditation...
Peter, the question I'd like you to address is why do you place the onus on Israel to change? The Palestinians could have had their own naton for over 75 years -- but have rejected it. Instead, their leaders propgandize their people that one day, the land will all be their's, and that resistance is the only way forward. Meanwhile, the people instead get left farther and farther behind as Israel and other Arab countries move forward. Why do the Palestinians continue down a losers' path instead of making peace? The formula is well known: accept Israel's right to exist, accept living in their own country next to Israel, and acknowledge that the only "right of return" of descendants of the 1948 war is to a new State of Palestine, not to Israel.
“ The formula is well known: accept Israel's right to exist, accept living in their own country next to Israel, and acknowledge that the only "right of return" of descendants of the 1948 war is to a new State of Palestine, not to Israel.”
Richard, Israel’s formula is well known. Why do you think all those settlements and settlers are living illegally in the West Bank?
The only way Palestinians can have a country of their own, is for all of the settlers to leave and take up residence in Israel proper, and that’s not going to happen. So the right of return doesn’t come into play for obvious reasons.
I do believe that Palestinians accept Israel’s right to exist, but not at their expense.
Getting to Israel’s formula. Israel wants to steal as much Palestinian land with as few Palestinians living there. That’s why they have been evicting them from their homes and treating the Palestinians like animals.
“Peter, the question I'd like you to address is why do you place the onus on Israel to change?”
If I could presume to answer that question. The onus on Israel to change, is because they have all the power, the Palestinians have none.
We have argued about peace plans before, so no need to repeat ourselves.
In sports, you change strategies when you are losing. The Palestinians have been playing a losing game for 75 years. It’s not Israel that needs to change. It’s the Palestinians that must change their game plan of rejectionism, terrorism, and refusing the idea of Jews and Israelis living in their own country.
Israel with one of the most powerful army's in the Middle East, has been playing a dirty game for 75 years with the help of the most powerful country in the world. What have the Palestinians got, very little.
In poker terms, Israel holds all the cards, Richard.
Sean, that’s true that Israel has the most powerful army. They could destroy the Palestinians and every other Arab country if they chose. But for 75 years they have tried to make peace. The question is why won’t the Palestinians? When you are in the loser’s spot, your negotiating position is pretty weak. The Palestinian demands for all of Israel -- the “right of return“, the made up policy for the made up definition of refugee, is a known non-starter. Israel used to have a peace now majority. The Palestinians ruined that. If they want to change, they must explicitly say so. The onus is on them.
What can the Palestinians do when their so called leaders are living in luxury in the pay of Israel. Do you at least admit that fact?
I feel bad for Palestinian citizens. They have had the most corrupt leaders for their entire history. Why do you think that they get so little aid sent to them by the wealthy oil countries that surround them? Because their fellow Arabs know that the money won’t go to help the people, it goes to the corrupt leaders and keeps them in power.
Beautifully said, Peter.
From my limited knowledge I think Albert Einstein is a great example of a Jew who both loved his people and defended Palestinian rights-I’d love to see you explore his life and legacy here.
Sorry Peter, I can't help with the love business, but just a few points I'd like to make on the annual contribution from America of 3.8 billion dollars, which is mainly used up with supplied armaments.
In my opinion trying to make the payments conditional or even stopping them, doesn't really worry Israel. After all 3.8 billion is miniscule in the greater scheme of things in Israel. What Israel would be more worried about is losing the support of the US Congress, and the cover which the US provides at the UN.
In the short term I don't think there will be any changes there, but in the longer term that support will evaporate, when the American people eventually realise that their elected representative's are being corrupted by foreign agents, in particular AIPAC among others. When that time comes there will be hell to pay.
AIPAC is made up of Americans. They are no more "foreign agents" than Rashida Tlaib is. I'm sorry Jews exercising their lobbying rights upsets you so much. Hopefully you'll get your way in the future and American Jews will have no voice in the government whatsoever.
"AIPAC is made up of Americans"
We knew that.
If you knew that, then why are you referring to Americans exercising their democratic rights to lobby the government as "foreign agents"? I thought it was ignorance, but now it seems more like dishonesty.
Doesn't AIPAC lobby for a foreign government, hence the foreign agents. I am sulking now because you said I was dishonest, so I am done commenting on this thread. Let the love in begin.
That's not what it means to be a foreign agent. Look it up. I didn't say you were dishonest, I said your statement was dishonest. But you directly called me a hasbara shill last thread, so I couldn't care less if your feelings were hurt. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
How to buy a politician!
https://youtu.be/jL_7-W5uJLk
Jews of the world, unite!
https://sbahour.medium.com/jews-of-the-world-unite-b515da78dad8?sk=3907e148eb84ba34e9affe613e48fc82
Sam, if you think Jews are going to unite behind a guy who thinks "expulsion is in the Zionist Jewish DNA," you got another thing coming.
This time I am going to strongly disagree; a long time ago during my youth, we all knew that the day of collision with the orthodox Jews and the “right” would come, but because of "Shlom Bayit" (peace in the house) we agree that it is not the time. I come to the US in 1970 to study Architecture but ended up working for the Jewish community, where I observed over the last 40 years the mantra of "Shlom Bayit." Still, this mantra enabled the addicts' extreme part of us to lead the country to where we are now. The lesson is freedom, enlightenment, and pluralism delay is like justice delay and always ends up wrongly. The pioneers who came to Israel to create a new reality and characters of the Jewish people are now losing their dreams because they allow the uncompromised part of the Jewish world to get into the self-destruct mode they and we are in.