Friday Call Our guest for this Friday’s Zoom call will be Marc Lamont Hill, a Professor at Temple University, a correspondent for BET News, and author, with Mitchell Plitnick, of Except for Palestine: The Limits of Progressive Politics. I wanted to talk to Marc because I’ve been struggling to figure out how to talk about Kanye West, Kyrie Irving, Dave Chappelle, and antisemitism. How does one discuss the power disparities that exist between Black Americans and white American Jews in Hollywood and elsewhere without fueling antisemitic tropes about Jewish conspiracies? And how can one fight bigotry against Jews without becoming complicit in bigotry against Palestinians when the organization that is so often called on to fight antisemitism, the Anti-Defamation League,
"He’s also been unfairly accused of antisemitism himself merely for using the phrase “free Palestine from the river to the sea”—even though Marc has never remotely suggested that Israeli Jews don’t deserve freedom, equality, and safety themselves"
Peter, I know you and your readers will never understand this, but most people and certainly most Jews see calling for the destruction of the one Jewish state in existence anti-Jewish, in part because the state is of great benefit and secures the rights of millions of Jews.
Calling for Jews to be stripped of their state and their right of self-determination does in fact indicate Marc doesn't think they deserve equality. This is completely obvious to anyone who is not blinded ideologically.
Just out of curiosity, are there any other nationalities that you believe deserve harassment on the basis of their identity? Would Israelis be justified in harassing Palestinians at the World Cup, as revenge for all the mass murder and terrorism?
"the power disparities that exist between Black Americans and white American Jews"... between, say, Clarence Thomas/Barack Obama/NYC Mayor Adams and, say, low-income American Jewish people. Are those the power disparities you meant? To stereotype Jewish people as powerful and wealthy, and Black people as poor and powerless, is to ignore the defining and founding feature of America: class power relations with their inherent inequalities between the working class of any description and the ruling class of employers and political elite. It is also, obviously, to accept the anti-semitic stereotype as true.
I hope Marc Lamont Hill addresses black antisemitism: Black Israelites, Ye, black vs Jewish violence (over 60% of physical violence against Jews), the hypocrisy of black leaders in failing to condemn Kyrie Irving, the unfair singling out of Israel at the UN, his cozying up to Farrakhan, and his lame attempt to excuse his deliberate use of “from the River to the Sea” knowing it was specifically the phrase used to call for wiping out Israel.
You have a problem with the Palestinians being excluded from the American Dream?
Packer aside, the more than half dozen number of times the US and the Western powers have tried to get the Palestinians and Israelis to the table is part of the reason I suspect Packer is not bothering with the Palestinians. The other should be obvious, what democratic institutions do the Palestinians espouse? Where are they? Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Authority?
I am not suggesting this is a one-sided problem, but it is a fact, that Palestinians have been to the table, have been offered all kinds of deals and have tended to negotiate them in earnest but in the end always said No. It is a truism that the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (Abba Eban).
There is also no question that the way Palestinian entities, and there are multiple entities seeking to speak for the Palestinians, interact with each other and with Israel is solely via violence driving Israelis to their own guns. After all, there is no single entity with which to negotiate.
In such climate few diplomats are interested in entering yet again. Thus, leaving the Palestinians to currently interact with possibly the worst Israeli government tin Israel’s history. This government is totally committed to the destruction of the Palestinian State.
The idea espoused here and by some others that the US can force Israel to create a Palestinian state by withdrawing military aid is ludicrous. It did not work in the past when Israel was truly dependent on the US. In fact, the juggernaut that is Israel’s military industrial complex was created as a result of such attempts. Today Israel is pretty much independent economically. The military aid Israel gets is mostly going to the American military industrial complex, they are the ones who would feel the pain the most.
I don’t know how Palestine will come to be, but I am confident it will not be as a result of attacks from Hamas, or teenagers oppressed or otherwise in the West Bank. It's time for more sober minds to reassess their condition and look for another way.
Re: Packer’s blind spot on Palestinians. Peter… have you commented on Arc of a Covenant? (Or invited Walter Russell Mead for a chat?). To me it explains America’s blind spot. The question is how do America Jews push back against the restorationism that’s baked into our foreign policy…
Years ago, during a New Yorker Festival, George Packer hosted a panel discussion in which he called three prominent Muslim intellectuals, including Azar Nafisi, to account for the fact that "the Muslim World," as he called it, had never undergone a period comparable to the European Enlightenment. In other words, to paraphrase Chevy Chase, "We're white, and you're not." That told me all I needed to know about George Packer. I haven't paid any attention to him since.
Regarding George Packer, except for helping places which have had natural disasters and fighting world wars, it's difficult to think of a country where the USA has been a benign influence politically. They are certainly in the minority.
It is interesting that the 2 comments so far start from different perspectives but end up with same conclusion. The conclusion is that antisemitism is the reason for all criticism of Jews and Israel. They remind me of my mother and her friends. Anything bad that happened to them was attributed to antisemitism. They had good reasons to think that way given what has happened to Jews. My mother, like so many others, lost her own extended family in Poland. However, that can't can't justify abusing others. When we bought our first house in Toronto in early 50's, my parents wanted to rent a room to help pay the mortgage. The first person who came was black. I heard my mother tell him that the room was already rented. If a streetcar did not stop for my mother because it was full, she said that the streetcar driver was an antisemite. Yes, sometimes there is good reason to be paranoid but it can hinder clear thinking.
I also didn't find it convincing at all
"He’s also been unfairly accused of antisemitism himself merely for using the phrase “free Palestine from the river to the sea”—even though Marc has never remotely suggested that Israeli Jews don’t deserve freedom, equality, and safety themselves"
Peter, I know you and your readers will never understand this, but most people and certainly most Jews see calling for the destruction of the one Jewish state in existence anti-Jewish, in part because the state is of great benefit and secures the rights of millions of Jews.
Calling for Jews to be stripped of their state and their right of self-determination does in fact indicate Marc doesn't think they deserve equality. This is completely obvious to anyone who is not blinded ideologically.
Beinart, I noticed you retweeted Daoud Kuttab who said that Israelis deserve to be harassed at the World Cup:
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhB7nEFSdK3LNhuVvOeK1ExiEbrNK-0GcbiYgTGpCAds_3S7x0pL314URzPjK7Pv1oovI5hKsCIPByb4hkqqiomHik6FzvIKlL2-mq2_dQAC36fKlPMcDfgRcBUwoOqutkCPOBwOXvJutJnaHas85J01OhmUVE6Gh2xRSTmjzipEEIZiLI-5E0/s632/kuttab.png
Just out of curiosity, are there any other nationalities that you believe deserve harassment on the basis of their identity? Would Israelis be justified in harassing Palestinians at the World Cup, as revenge for all the mass murder and terrorism?
"the power disparities that exist between Black Americans and white American Jews"... between, say, Clarence Thomas/Barack Obama/NYC Mayor Adams and, say, low-income American Jewish people. Are those the power disparities you meant? To stereotype Jewish people as powerful and wealthy, and Black people as poor and powerless, is to ignore the defining and founding feature of America: class power relations with their inherent inequalities between the working class of any description and the ruling class of employers and political elite. It is also, obviously, to accept the anti-semitic stereotype as true.
I hope Marc Lamont Hill addresses black antisemitism: Black Israelites, Ye, black vs Jewish violence (over 60% of physical violence against Jews), the hypocrisy of black leaders in failing to condemn Kyrie Irving, the unfair singling out of Israel at the UN, his cozying up to Farrakhan, and his lame attempt to excuse his deliberate use of “from the River to the Sea” knowing it was specifically the phrase used to call for wiping out Israel.
You have a problem with the Palestinians being excluded from the American Dream?
Packer aside, the more than half dozen number of times the US and the Western powers have tried to get the Palestinians and Israelis to the table is part of the reason I suspect Packer is not bothering with the Palestinians. The other should be obvious, what democratic institutions do the Palestinians espouse? Where are they? Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Palestinian Authority?
I am not suggesting this is a one-sided problem, but it is a fact, that Palestinians have been to the table, have been offered all kinds of deals and have tended to negotiate them in earnest but in the end always said No. It is a truism that the Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (Abba Eban).
There is also no question that the way Palestinian entities, and there are multiple entities seeking to speak for the Palestinians, interact with each other and with Israel is solely via violence driving Israelis to their own guns. After all, there is no single entity with which to negotiate.
In such climate few diplomats are interested in entering yet again. Thus, leaving the Palestinians to currently interact with possibly the worst Israeli government tin Israel’s history. This government is totally committed to the destruction of the Palestinian State.
The idea espoused here and by some others that the US can force Israel to create a Palestinian state by withdrawing military aid is ludicrous. It did not work in the past when Israel was truly dependent on the US. In fact, the juggernaut that is Israel’s military industrial complex was created as a result of such attempts. Today Israel is pretty much independent economically. The military aid Israel gets is mostly going to the American military industrial complex, they are the ones who would feel the pain the most.
I don’t know how Palestine will come to be, but I am confident it will not be as a result of attacks from Hamas, or teenagers oppressed or otherwise in the West Bank. It's time for more sober minds to reassess their condition and look for another way.
Re: Packer’s blind spot on Palestinians. Peter… have you commented on Arc of a Covenant? (Or invited Walter Russell Mead for a chat?). To me it explains America’s blind spot. The question is how do America Jews push back against the restorationism that’s baked into our foreign policy…
Years ago, during a New Yorker Festival, George Packer hosted a panel discussion in which he called three prominent Muslim intellectuals, including Azar Nafisi, to account for the fact that "the Muslim World," as he called it, had never undergone a period comparable to the European Enlightenment. In other words, to paraphrase Chevy Chase, "We're white, and you're not." That told me all I needed to know about George Packer. I haven't paid any attention to him since.
America is not in the right on Ukraine. Please read "How the West Brought War to Ukraine" by Benjamin Abelow.
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Regarding George Packer, except for helping places which have had natural disasters and fighting world wars, it's difficult to think of a country where the USA has been a benign influence politically. They are certainly in the minority.
It is interesting that the 2 comments so far start from different perspectives but end up with same conclusion. The conclusion is that antisemitism is the reason for all criticism of Jews and Israel. They remind me of my mother and her friends. Anything bad that happened to them was attributed to antisemitism. They had good reasons to think that way given what has happened to Jews. My mother, like so many others, lost her own extended family in Poland. However, that can't can't justify abusing others. When we bought our first house in Toronto in early 50's, my parents wanted to rent a room to help pay the mortgage. The first person who came was black. I heard my mother tell him that the room was already rented. If a streetcar did not stop for my mother because it was full, she said that the streetcar driver was an antisemite. Yes, sometimes there is good reason to be paranoid but it can hinder clear thinking.
Palestine is the exception that disproves the rule.
But actually are the Palestinians all that unique in questioning the benevolence of American hegemonic striving? Don’t think so.
Amen! Not only does the U.S. block our emancipation, the U.S. is an active co-partner with Israel in oppressing Palestinians.