Our Zoom call this week will be at a special time: Thursday at 11 AM EDT. Our guests will be Joshua Leifer, a prominent progressive critic of Israel who has also been highly critical of the unwillingness of some progressives to condemn Hamas’ killing of civilians, and
1. Surely its possible to characterize these acts are "pure evil", even while understanding the broader context of challenges of Palestinian life. It sounds like you are saying that it is impossible for a victim to commit acts of "evil" if they have been sufficiently 'oppressed'. Would you agree with that statement?
2. Surely there are many many examples of people all throughout the world and history who have had more difficult struggles than the Palestinians and not resorted to such acts. How do you explain why Hamas's response to feelings of victimhood is so much worse?
3. If self-determination is truly the goal for Palestinians, then wouldn't the rational response be to protest against Hamas who have misrepresented Islam to the world, misrepresented the Palestinian soul to the world, and have likely just killed any hope for a 2 state solution? Why isn't more of the outrage in pro-Palestinian movement directed toward Hamas? At this moment, they are actively putting Palestinians in harms' way by hiding behind them and refusing to release the hostages. How do you explain the lack of Palestinian voices urging the world to help free them from Hamas tyranny?
4. What do you think is the appropriate thing for the Israeli government to do at this moment?
3,000 words to justify and defend mass slaughter, rape, and kidnapping. Or as Peter would describe it "resisting oppression."
Like most defenders of Hamas' war crimes, Peter decides for history to start whenever he chooses it to. In this case, history begins when Gazans are "oppressed." Not in 2005, when Israel left Gaza to self-determine, like Palestinians have always said they wanted. Not in pre-Second Intifada times, when the conflict was at a relatively low level. Not in 1966, when Gaza was part of Egypt. Not in 1947, when Israel wasn't even a state yet. Not in 1834, when Zionism didn't even exist as a concept.
Why should anyone listen to your justifications of Hamas' crimes when they're telling us why they're committing them? Why should anyone believe you over them?
And by the way, the leaders of Hamas aren't "oppressed." They're living large in Qatar on Iranian money. I know you think the victim card always works, but it's not going to work this time. Or maybe ever again.
This is a disgusting twisting of Peter’s words. And you know it. He never, at any point, justified or defended what Hamas did and repeatedly condemned it. But you’re enjoying this moment where the state of Israel is the victim (it isn’t) and will run with it as long as you can.
"You can't blame them" is justifying it and defending it. It's transparently obvious.
If you don't think the raped and butchered 1300 men, women, and children are victims, then there truly is no hope for you in this world or any other. If there is a God, may he have mercy on your soul, because you will find none here.
"You can't blame them" for resisting is what he said. You know fine well he's talking about resistance in general, not the particular form Hamas' attack on October 7 took. It really is sad that you have to intentionally twist his words here.
Twaddle. The entire article is about Hamas' attack on 10/7. If he had meant "resistance in general, not 10/7" he would have said that. You don't need to translate for him, he's a big boy, he knows how to write, and he wrote what he meant.
No, Jack Off, you don't have the intelligence, or at the least the moral fortitude to condemn in the strongest terms the murder of babies and young people attending a concert. Sick bastard.
What has Hamas done with the $1.5 billion in aid they've received since 2005? Did they invest in infrastructure? education? desalinization plants? industry?
NO! Hamas enriched themselves and used the money to build missiles and weapons and training terrorists. Rather than teaching their children science and math, they taught them to kill Jews.
Had they acted like civilized people Israel would have welcomed them as neighbors. Instead, both Israel and Egypt had to secure the borders knowing that this dangerous group of lunatics would use any opportunity to do what they finally accomplished last Saturday.
So here we are. Israel must destroy Hamas not only for its own security but to free the Palestinian civilians who voted these murderers into power.
Protest organizers Palestine Action Group Sydney defended it as “peaceful,” distancing itself from “a tiny fringe” of antisemitic attendees responsible for the chants. “From our observations [the chanting] occurred for less than one minute and was not an ongoing chant,” the group wrote.
“They were quickly condemned for their chants and asked to leave. Long-standing Palestinian organizers and activists, Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim elders attending the protest were disgusted and deplored by the action,” they continued. “This is not what our movement stands for.”
Winters. In the diaspora? I don’t know if there is any data, but the protest in question would appear to support that view. In Gaza? Where people were born into and have only known a hellish reality with no end in sight? THAT is where there are fertile conditions for desperate people to end up supporting or joining Hamas
Another thoughtful and insightful piece from Mr Beinart. The claim by Anthony Blinken, echoed around the Western world by many others opposed to Palestinian liberation, that the members of Hamas (and by simplistic association the entire Palestinian people themselves) are 'pure evil' is far from new and always entirely wrong in analysis and in motivation. It is a lazy means to absolve the apartheid Israeli state from any moral culpability; it is a means to give a blessing to future acts of aggression by that state; and it is a way to stop thinking entirely. Of course, the Zionists who strangely keep adding their equally lazy and unthinking two penn'orth to the comments here will be decrying Mr Beinart's supposed callous lack of compassion towards the victims of that reactionary, fanatical and misogynistic organisation that Israel helped create as a counter to more moderate groups. They can do so. They have a vast amount of military, financial and political backing. But they have little moral force at all.
Yes, I agree. Blinken’s statement about the acts of Hamas being “evil” was both a moral and political statement. After spending the week reading about the atrocities in southern Israel, I agree with the moral statement.
It’s the political statement in the context of what America’s political class means when they talk about “evil” that has me worried.
It suggests groundwork being laid for what’s to follow. You don’t negotiate with evil, you don’t appease evil, you don’t call for ceasefires to confront evil, and maybe you say something at the onset about humanitarian concerns and international law as a CYA, but allow that fighting evil can get “messy”—it’s evil after all and you have to “take the gloves off”.
Look at the battles of Fallujah in the Iraq War and in Mosul in the fight against ISIS. Reduced to rubble. That’s what is about to happen to Gaza. It’s well underway. There’s no concern about choices or outcomes when fighting evil, in this view, there’s simply doing what must be done and there’s no moral accountability for the consequences.
Let's hear it from you, Rebecca: "I oppose the slaughter of 260 young people at a concert. I oppose the murder of families while asleep in their homes. I oppose the killing of 40 babies and beheading and burning the bodies of many of them. I oppose the kidnapping of children, teenagers, young adults...and even grandmothers. I oppose raping women and parading them around to the cheers of fellow Palestinians." Come on, you raging antisemite, can you do it?
I'm opposed to any killing (anytime, anywhere), but none of those 3,500 civilians would be dead if Hamas hadn't done what it did. I assume they expected exactly what they are getting, especially given the targets they chose.
It's tragic for all, but it's also just kind of ridiculous, this obsession with a tiny strip of land that has been going on for centuries.
“None of those 3,500 civilians would be dead if Hamas hadn't done what it did.”
I assume you weren’t paying attention the previous half-dozen times Israel bombed the living shit out of Gaza?
And what about all the civilian deaths that predated Hamas? Hamas is not the underlying cause here. Hamas is a fairly new player, and one that was deliberately cultivated by Netanyahu.
If we’re talking specificity, then Hamas has even less to do with it. Hamas specifically killed those 1200 Israeli civilians. The Israeli Air Force specifically killed these 3500 Palestinian civilians.
Yes, the Israeli government would like you to believe that there is a causal link between the two sets of killings, but if you insist on seeing Hamas as having agency in their situation, you must also see the IDF as having agency in theirs.
Hamas *chose* to kill 1200 Israeli civilians. The Israeli government *chose* to kill 3500 Palestinian civilians.
You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. If you see the Israeli government as lacking agency in the situation, you must also see Hamas as lacking agency in the situation, as well.
So it seems like what you’re saying is that, just like Bibi, you support Hamas.
If you’ve been paying attention for forty years, and you can’t see that you’re supporting Hamas, you must be doing a really bad job of paying attention.
Nobody in the history of humanity slits the throats of ten year olds, gang rapes teenagers, massacres hundreds at a music festival, drags Holocaust survivors around by their hair, burns babies to death, drags families out of their homes and kills them execution style, slices babies out of the bellies of pregnant women and then stabs the babies to death, parades the half naked bodies of women they've killed around to cheers, mocks the victims on their own Facebook pages, etc, because they had bad living conditions. It's never happened, ever, and it didn't happen on 10/7. You are blaming the victims.
No one here, including Peter, is justifying Hamas' crimes. There is a huge difference between explaining and justifying.
Hamas members are ultimately responsible for their actions, and I certainly agree that they need to pay the price (I just hope Israel can proceed intelligently and minimize the deaths of civilians in Gaza, without putting its soldiers at undue risk).
But I think it is also undoubtedly true that Hamas has gained the level of support they have in Palestinian society because of the policies of Netanyahu and the settler right that have systematically undermined moderate Palestinians to make it easier to justify West Bank settlement.
Just as history has judged the European policies in the wake of World War I for helping pave the way for the rise of the Nazis, history will judge Netanyahu and the settlers for helping pave the way for the rise of Hamas. That doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas any more than it does the action of the Nazis. But understanding what created the conditions for these types of movements to emerge is important to preventing them from happening again.
And the reality is that any society is capable of producing barbarism. I don't believe that the Hamas fighters who attacked innocents in Israel were any worse than Lieutenant Calley or Baruch Goldstein. And the fact that there are some in Israel who still venerate Goldstein tells you about the darkness that exists in every human society.
What separates Israel from Palestinian society is that Israel has generally kept the Hamas wing of its society on the fringes and without power. But in fairness to the Palestinians, it's easier to do so when you're winning and have hope.
No, Peter didn't say "you can't blame them." And I would bet any amount of money he would say that's not what he meant.
Certainly, I believe you can blame them. And I support sending the IDF in to capture or kill them. I believe they deserve it. Lots of people do live in difficult circumstances without committing atrocities.
But I believe that Netanyahu and the settler movement are ALSO to blame, both for creating the conditions that allowed Hamas to thrive and for focusing the IDF's attention in the wrong place. Now the fact that I blame Netanyahu doesn't mean I think he should be killed; just voted out of office. And I believe the West Bank settlements should be disbanded (except perhaps for a few near the border that can exchange for in land swaps).
You must not have read the article you're commenting on. The beginning of the final paragraph:
"All these people who want to just go in and destroy Hamas, right, and do unbelievable damage in Gaza, I really believe that if they were listening more to Palestinians, they would be asking themselves the question: what kind of Palestinian response? What kind of Palestinian resistance? Because people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do. "
Peter is indisputably justifying Hamas' crimes. This will be his legacy.
I don't think I'm the one that didn't read far enough. Here is the final line of Peter's essay (before a couple of admin announcements about what is coming next).
"Just again, it’s not to excuse what Hamas did in any way."
He literally could not have been any more clear in saying he doesn't excuse Hamas.
I think the fact that you completely misread both the subtext and text of what Peter is saying is something that should make you reflect. And while I obviously don't know you well to be sure about this Anonymous, I'd suggest the root problem may be that you don't want to confront the truth of what Peter is saying and are looking for an excuse to avoid having to think about a substantive response.
Reread the passage you quoted above. Do you disagree that "people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do."
To me that is wholly true. Now you certainly can still blame people for HOW they choose to resist oppression, and I 100% blame Hamas for their barbarism (and apparently Peter does too). But I do think there is a cycle of oppression that needs to be broken if there is ever going to be peace for Israelis and Palestinians. And I certainly blame the Palestinians for that cycle as much as Israelis. But no matter who is to blame, things need to changes, and as the dominant force that change is going to have to be driven by Israel. Here is my belief for what needs to happen:
Sorry, but after 3000 words justifying it and blaming the victims, a pithy "this is not an excuse" doesn't cut the mustard. Beinart just gave Palestine a boat load of excuses for mass murder and gang rape, and they are going to point to his arguments when they do it again in the future. Not buying it.
Palestine is not "resisting oppression." That is Beinart projecting his own cognitive biases and experiences on somebody else's actions. The Palestinian leadership has said over and over why they do what they do: because they want to genocide the Israelis. You just choose not to listen to them. There is no cycle of violence: there is Palestine murdering Israeli and Israel stopping them from murdering more.
First of all Jews are not “white” in the European and popular sense. Quoting Dr King to equate the US civil rights movement to Hamas/Palestinians is deeply flawed and shows just how deluded and neurotic you are…no Israeli Jews have been present in Gaza for nearly a generation …when you talk about violence and blockades they are to an event the result of Hamas/PIJ attacks, aggression and violence…you are a condescending leftist elitist because in your own mind you do not think the Palestinians should be expected to live up to your progressive visions because they are Arab…comparing Zionist Jews to European colonialists and chauvinistic nationalists is incorrect and naive…you fail to comprehensively look at the causes of Palestinian suffering and conveniently ignore the corrupt, brutal and absent Palestinian leadership while faulting Israel for things it cannot possibly control…your thinking is reminiscent of Holocaust victims who blamed other Jews for Nazi Anti Semitism…Hamas does not care about how poor, downtrodden or impacted by violence any Palestinians are…they care about Salafism and destroying Israel and any Western influence in the Middle East and world…they would have done the same thing no matter what their living conditions in Gaza because that’s their reason to exist…TO KILL JEWS AND DESTROY ISRAEL…why can’t you admit that? Because it does not fit your narrative and obsolete revolutionary thinking…feeling sorry for someone who hates you and will kill you is useless when you are dead…Beinart you are intellectually and morally dead and when our nation looks at you in the future they will feel ashamed that you were alive
Did you see this? “A 6-year-old boy was being buried Monday and his mother was hospitalized with stab wounds after their 71-year-old landlord attacked them because of their Muslim faith and high emotions over the Israel-Hamas war globally and nationwide, police said.”
So should we see this in a context of the history of Jewish and Palestinian strife?
Of course not! This is a crime that needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I suggest you stop equivocating. Its insulting to the intelligence.
What happened in Gaza is a lot simpler than you think. Hamas has a genocidal hatred of Jews. Full stop . It has nothing to do with Palestine it has everything to do with Jews and Jew hatred.
> Protest organiser Palestine Action Group Sydney defended its right to protest "apartheid" in Israel but said a small number of "vile antisemitic attendees" had no place in their movement. We are an anti-racist and anti-colonial movement and we refuse to fight racism with racism," the group said in a post on social media. "If you are an antisemite, you are not welcome at our rallies and are not a part of our movement. As we did today, we will ask you to leave and we will continue to do this."
I am sorry, you make the Leftist identity error. Identity does not determine morality. Who you are does not forgive what you did. Your apologetics for Hamas are absurd and dangerous. This is what empowers evil to continue.
There is no context that would justify killing innocent children other than the most brutal utilitarianism. If killing a baby on television before the super bowl would save 100 lives would you find that mathematics humane? Just? Certainly not.
Peter is a "kumbaya" guy. That is the problem so many anti-colonialist apologists are having now. They cannot process that the donations they may have made to the "Free Palestine" movements ultimately ended up in the hands of Hamas to kill innocents. Peter fears deeply he has blood on his hands. I fear he does too.
Utter drivel. Again, who justified the killing of innocent children?
What is your solution to the current situation? Wipe out Hamas? Have you thought that through? There is no military solution short of expelling or killing ALL of the Palestinians. But even the consequences of that are impossible to predict.
Lol @ 'anti-colonialist apologists'. 'Apologist' is used in a negative sense, so the fact that you put it after 'anti-colonialist' says everything we need to know about your attitude toward colonialism and colonized peoples.
My claim is not that it's justified, but that it's morally gray. I've already explained the reasoning behind that in the comment above (my main comment that isn't a reply to anyone else but is address Peter Beinart directly).
“I am sorry, you make the Leftist identity error. Identity does not determine morality. Who you are does not forgive what you did. Your apologetics for the IDF are absurd and dangerous. This is what empowers evil to continue.”
So what you’re saying is that, unlike Peter, you support Hamas?
That is a separste issue, and you know it. Don't be smug. Bibi must go, yes for so many bad drcisions, that miscalculation was one of them. How the left contorts itself to justify their stupidity.
I should apologize for lumping you together with all the dishonest smarm in this comment section, then… 😬
(I agree that it’s a mistake for so many people to think that opposing Likud must inherently require one to support Hamas. Plenty of Likudniks push this angle in bad faith, and then some people on the left are credulous enough in believing this lie that they go further and openly support Hamas.)
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Yes, I see. A number of people come every week just to contradict or attack Peter and anybody who expresses support for his views, who happily are more numerous. As in the US in general. Slow but measurable progress.
Similarly, here's Peter and the rest's views, summarized:
Hamas and Company: Massacres hundreds of people, burned babies, rape, etc. etc. etc.
Peter and the rest: Well, you have to understand the historical context. Resisting oppression is a natural instinct. Obvious response to poor conditions. Walk in their shoes. Try to be understanding.
Israel: Blockades Gaza, sets up checkpoints, airstrikes on Hamas militants.
Peter and the rest: Apartheid, apartheid, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, Jewish supremacy, apartheid.
The double standards and hypocrisy are just so obvious and so disgusting. Peter and the rest bend over backwards to "explain"/justify Hamas' war crimes, but never give Israel the slightest benefit of the doubt or any assumption of good intentions. It's completely ridiculous.
What Hamas did was reprehensible, what Israel is doing is equally reprehensible.
“Hannah Arendt wrote about the banality of evil; what we are witnessing now is the fever of orchestrated revenge. This revenge can only be carried out at the pitch we are witnessing when the context of subjugation, oppression, and dehumanisation already exists. The bombing of Gaza is not merely a reaction to Hamas’ abhorrent, disgusting, unforgivable violence, but a continuum of the dehumanisation of Palestinians. After Hamas’ attack, people asked “how” this could happen, given Israel’s level of surveillance. No one needed to ask “why”. Everyone knows the context.” Una Mullaly
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Thank you Peter. I think we can both condemn Hamas's war crimes and understand the context of unending deprivation and oppression in which it occurred. I appreciate your trying to get those who see this in terms of pure evil to see when they themselves would be more capable of seeing the context in which these atrocities occurred. You are trying to get them to see the victimized conditions in which these perpetrators (of atrocities) acted.
My suggestion, however, is that you go beyond our/their ability to empathize with American Indians/Native Americans who committed atrocities against civilians as acts of resistance to seeing ourselves as capable of perpetrating "evil" too - Here I mean look at events like the Sand Creek Massacre where Euro-white settlers committed atrocities every bit as heinous as those Hamas committed last week - and those Euro-white settlers were not acting out of resistance to their own oppression, rather they acted out of an ideology of supremacy - white supremacy, their own supremacy, morally and politically, over the Indigenous peoples whose land and resources they wanted to take wrongfully and unjustly.
The point is that what Hamas is capable of, so are we. It does not excuse either and in my view we need to sort out and hold responsible those who perpetrate war crimes now that we have mechanisms for doing that. And, once the violence has ended (sooner is better) we absolutely must do the work of liberating Palestinians from the oppression and deprivations of the occupation so that they live with equal rights in every way, including their collective expression of language, culture, and identity, to Israeli Jews and everyone else. And we in the US have a lot of reconciliation work to do as well - with Indigenous as well as other BIPOC people and our own history of injustice and injury.
Franke Wilmer. I agree with your post. I would add that we know for a fact that Jews are capable of acts similar to what Hamas did, as is any group. One only needs to read what happened at Deir Yassin, and not only were these acts largely tolerated in Israel, two of the perpetrators’ leaders were later elected to the highest office in Israel.
I am no fan of luxury ethics and the boutique morality that comes from them. When you apologize for the behavior of Hamas from the safety and wealth of the academic environs you harm the living Palestinians and living Israelis who must live in the brutal blood soaked pain of what such wretched morals allow.
I condemn, not apologize for, the behavior of Hamas. The ability to dehumanize others and act inhumanely toward those you dehumanize is, in my view, a universal quality of the human condition. We are all capable of it and must be vigilant over it. and those who do so should be held accountable.
The problem for Israel now is not apparent moral-obtuseness and equivocation of left-wing activists on western campuses and their apparent sympathy for Hamas. It’s the fact that it’s the 300 million Arabs that surround the 7 million Israeli Jews that are having apparent sympathy with Hamas.
Where are the Abraham Accords countries now? The Emiratis had some measured assurances, but there was a mass rally of 10,000s in Morocco in support of Hamas over the weekend. Another in Bahrain.
Saudi Arabia’s MBS and Iran’s Raisi had a phone call about their common support for the Palestinian cause—as each jockey’s for position to project themselves as the regional champion of the Palestinians. Meanwhile the Lebanese border seems bound to erupt.
The set up for the 2023 Gaza war strikes me as following a similar path as the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
Most of the world stood aghast at the 1972 Munich Olympics massacre and the hijackings that followed and. against Black September and and the PLO.
Finally, in 1982, the Begin government had had enough and decided to crush the PLO for good—much like they say must be done to Hamas today. Then the atrocities started.
Over the course of the next 5 years, the Nobel prize winner Menachem Begin would resign in disgrace, Israel would be isolated in condemnation by the world, the PLO would escape and later be recognized as the rightful representatives of the Palestinian people by the Reagan administration, Hamas would emerge to take the hardline rejectionist position vacated by the PLO, and in the process Israel would inadvertently create a base of support for an enemy in Hezbollah that was 10x more potent than the PLO.
Excellent synthesis, even with the bits left out for economy (notably why tacit/passive support by Israel for Hamas to undermine PLO is an essential ingredient in the now). Each wave will be more extreme. If ever the Arab street is emancipated...
And don't forget those Abraham Accord countries have authoritarian governments where the "will of the people" are irrelevant. Those governments apparently feel that a stable relationship with Israel will in part help keep them in power and enrich them. The people they govern? Not so much. They still will be subjugated and no doubt their bitterness will spill over to whoever assist the dictators. Israel is now sleeping with some nefarious characters and the "ordinary Joe's" of those countries are taking notice.
When Israel doesn't make peace with Arab authoritarians, you accuse them of being warmongers. When Israel does make peace with Arab authoritarians, you say they are "sleeping with some nefarious characters."
Most of us noticed that the Arab world is awash in oppression and human rights violations BEFORE it could be contorted to attack Israel yet again. Welcome to the party, pal.
You forgot everyone’s favorite warmongers and nefarious characters: the United States government. Really, as long as Israel acts as an instrument of US foreign policy, how could anyone ever think them seriously interested in peace?!?
Hey, man, before you smear Israel as an oppressor, try to see things from their perspective. Walk in their shoes. Think about the conditions they live in. Because people are going to respond when they're attack. They just will.
“Hey, man, before you smear Gaza as an oppressor, try to see things from their perspective. Walk in their shoes. Think about the conditions they live in. Because people are going to respond when they're attack. They just will.”
So what you’re saying, Winters, is that you support Hamas?
I don’t get how progressives and leftists, including many at Jewish Currents, can erroneously and hysterically accuse Israel of genocidal intentions toward the Palestinians, and ignore the policies and ideologies of Iran, Hamas, and Hizbollah, which have been and continue to be in fact literally and explicitly genocidal toward Jews. Fortunately some are out there reminding people of the truth, e.g. Yair Rosenberg in The Atlantic.
So you didn't notice Hamas going to villages in Israel and indiscriminately killing anyone they could get their hands on? Or maybe that's not genocidal, since anointed Arabs are the ones doing that instead of filthy Jews.
“So you didn't notice Israeli settlers going to villages in the West Bank and indiscriminately killing anyone they could get their hands on? Or maybe that's not genocidal, since anointed Jews are the ones doing that instead of filthy Arabs.”
So what you’re saying, Winters, is that you support Hamas?
Yes, I'm sure having your intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy exposed is very irritating. As for my "insincerity", I'd ask you to give me an example, but we both know you don't have one.
It's a fault of Western governments to support Israel over the preferences of their own populations (24% in UK sympathise with Palestine-10% with Israel, yet Gov and opposition support Israel) If the US conditioned its support to Israel on human/civil rights basis we would have the beginning of a solution. It doesn't so we don't. US unconditional support of Israel is the core of the problem.
all this litmus testing of outrage over carnage committed by hamas is a distraction. hamas is going to do what hamas does. where have you been for the last 35 years?
what should leave jaws on the floor is how the netanyahu gov't, by most appearances, allowed it to happen--that should be the target of anyone's outrage. the calamity also exposes the settler/southern israel divide for the world to see (especially perilous when the other enemies of israel know this). the decision to leave the south unprotected represents a sick, cynical political calculation that exploits that divide.
Yeah, Likud treating their own ineptitude as some sort of “I told you so” gotcha is really something… Who has been running Israel for the better part of the past thirty years? Hmmm?
Anyway as for the Israeli response… Bibi’s gonna do what Bibi’s gonna do. (Bibi’s gonna embezzle more money from the Israeli government, and Bibi’s gonna take more bribes, if you ask me.)
Peter -
Would be very interested to hear your responses:
1. Surely its possible to characterize these acts are "pure evil", even while understanding the broader context of challenges of Palestinian life. It sounds like you are saying that it is impossible for a victim to commit acts of "evil" if they have been sufficiently 'oppressed'. Would you agree with that statement?
2. Surely there are many many examples of people all throughout the world and history who have had more difficult struggles than the Palestinians and not resorted to such acts. How do you explain why Hamas's response to feelings of victimhood is so much worse?
3. If self-determination is truly the goal for Palestinians, then wouldn't the rational response be to protest against Hamas who have misrepresented Islam to the world, misrepresented the Palestinian soul to the world, and have likely just killed any hope for a 2 state solution? Why isn't more of the outrage in pro-Palestinian movement directed toward Hamas? At this moment, they are actively putting Palestinians in harms' way by hiding behind them and refusing to release the hostages. How do you explain the lack of Palestinian voices urging the world to help free them from Hamas tyranny?
4. What do you think is the appropriate thing for the Israeli government to do at this moment?
3,000 words to justify and defend mass slaughter, rape, and kidnapping. Or as Peter would describe it "resisting oppression."
Like most defenders of Hamas' war crimes, Peter decides for history to start whenever he chooses it to. In this case, history begins when Gazans are "oppressed." Not in 2005, when Israel left Gaza to self-determine, like Palestinians have always said they wanted. Not in pre-Second Intifada times, when the conflict was at a relatively low level. Not in 1966, when Gaza was part of Egypt. Not in 1947, when Israel wasn't even a state yet. Not in 1834, when Zionism didn't even exist as a concept.
Hamas is quite clear about what it wants: "His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” https://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/09/world/middleeast/khaled-meshal-hamas-leader-delivers-defiant-speech-on-anniversary-celebration.html
Why should anyone listen to your justifications of Hamas' crimes when they're telling us why they're committing them? Why should anyone believe you over them?
And by the way, the leaders of Hamas aren't "oppressed." They're living large in Qatar on Iranian money. I know you think the victim card always works, but it's not going to work this time. Or maybe ever again.
Winters, you appear not to have the intelligence to distinguish an explanation from a justification.
"Because people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do." - Peter Beinart
You "can't blame them" for mass slaughter, rape, burning babies. You can't! You're literally not allowed to.
This is a disgusting twisting of Peter’s words. And you know it. He never, at any point, justified or defended what Hamas did and repeatedly condemned it. But you’re enjoying this moment where the state of Israel is the victim (it isn’t) and will run with it as long as you can.
"You can't blame them" is justifying it and defending it. It's transparently obvious.
If you don't think the raped and butchered 1300 men, women, and children are victims, then there truly is no hope for you in this world or any other. If there is a God, may he have mercy on your soul, because you will find none here.
"You can't blame them" for resisting is what he said. You know fine well he's talking about resistance in general, not the particular form Hamas' attack on October 7 took. It really is sad that you have to intentionally twist his words here.
Twaddle. The entire article is about Hamas' attack on 10/7. If he had meant "resistance in general, not 10/7" he would have said that. You don't need to translate for him, he's a big boy, he knows how to write, and he wrote what he meant.
Anonymous, agreed, we are not allowed to blame Zionists for the slaughter they have caused since they began their occupation of Palestine.
Glad you can't dispute Peter is justifying Hamas' violence.
I did dispute it and you know it!
No, Jack Off, you don't have the intelligence, or at the least the moral fortitude to condemn in the strongest terms the murder of babies and young people attending a concert. Sick bastard.
Not understanding the root cause of the problem, which you obviously don't, will ensure that it will happen again.
What has Hamas done with the $1.5 billion in aid they've received since 2005? Did they invest in infrastructure? education? desalinization plants? industry?
NO! Hamas enriched themselves and used the money to build missiles and weapons and training terrorists. Rather than teaching their children science and math, they taught them to kill Jews.
Had they acted like civilized people Israel would have welcomed them as neighbors. Instead, both Israel and Egypt had to secure the borders knowing that this dangerous group of lunatics would use any opportunity to do what they finally accomplished last Saturday.
So here we are. Israel must destroy Hamas not only for its own security but to free the Palestinian civilians who voted these murderers into power.
Protest organizers Palestine Action Group Sydney defended it as “peaceful,” distancing itself from “a tiny fringe” of antisemitic attendees responsible for the chants. “From our observations [the chanting] occurred for less than one minute and was not an ongoing chant,” the group wrote.
“They were quickly condemned for their chants and asked to leave. Long-standing Palestinian organizers and activists, Palestinian, Arab, and Muslim elders attending the protest were disgusted and deplored by the action,” they continued. “This is not what our movement stands for.”
Hamas is a "tiny fringe"? WTF are you talking about?
Winters. In the diaspora? I don’t know if there is any data, but the protest in question would appear to support that view. In Gaza? Where people were born into and have only known a hellish reality with no end in sight? THAT is where there are fertile conditions for desperate people to end up supporting or joining Hamas
Terrific, Peter. Very compelling and sensitive reasoning. New subscriber.
Another thoughtful and insightful piece from Mr Beinart. The claim by Anthony Blinken, echoed around the Western world by many others opposed to Palestinian liberation, that the members of Hamas (and by simplistic association the entire Palestinian people themselves) are 'pure evil' is far from new and always entirely wrong in analysis and in motivation. It is a lazy means to absolve the apartheid Israeli state from any moral culpability; it is a means to give a blessing to future acts of aggression by that state; and it is a way to stop thinking entirely. Of course, the Zionists who strangely keep adding their equally lazy and unthinking two penn'orth to the comments here will be decrying Mr Beinart's supposed callous lack of compassion towards the victims of that reactionary, fanatical and misogynistic organisation that Israel helped create as a counter to more moderate groups. They can do so. They have a vast amount of military, financial and political backing. But they have little moral force at all.
What's "pure evil" according to Rebecca Turner: Israel and Zionists.
What's not evil: rapists, baby murderers, Hamas.
" it is a means to give a blessing to future acts of aggression by that state; and it is a way to stop thinking entirely"
An excellent description of Peter's essay. "They're oppressed, so of course they're going to commit mass murder."
“They're oppressed, so of course they're going to commit mass murder.”
Are you talking about Zionists or Hamas here? Because both groups have exactly this same type of genocidal victim complex, you know…
You''ll have to ask Peter, as he's the one with that logic, not me.
Yes, I agree. Blinken’s statement about the acts of Hamas being “evil” was both a moral and political statement. After spending the week reading about the atrocities in southern Israel, I agree with the moral statement.
It’s the political statement in the context of what America’s political class means when they talk about “evil” that has me worried.
It suggests groundwork being laid for what’s to follow. You don’t negotiate with evil, you don’t appease evil, you don’t call for ceasefires to confront evil, and maybe you say something at the onset about humanitarian concerns and international law as a CYA, but allow that fighting evil can get “messy”—it’s evil after all and you have to “take the gloves off”.
Look at the battles of Fallujah in the Iraq War and in Mosul in the fight against ISIS. Reduced to rubble. That’s what is about to happen to Gaza. It’s well underway. There’s no concern about choices or outcomes when fighting evil, in this view, there’s simply doing what must be done and there’s no moral accountability for the consequences.
Let's hear it from you, Rebecca: "I oppose the slaughter of 260 young people at a concert. I oppose the murder of families while asleep in their homes. I oppose the killing of 40 babies and beheading and burning the bodies of many of them. I oppose the kidnapping of children, teenagers, young adults...and even grandmothers. I oppose raping women and parading them around to the cheers of fellow Palestinians." Come on, you raging antisemite, can you do it?
Let's hear it from you, Richard: "I oppose the murder of 3,500 Palestinian civilians in Gaza since October 8th.”
Yeah, you *definitely* believe in the value of human life, my dude.
I'm opposed to any killing (anytime, anywhere), but none of those 3,500 civilians would be dead if Hamas hadn't done what it did. I assume they expected exactly what they are getting, especially given the targets they chose.
It's tragic for all, but it's also just kind of ridiculous, this obsession with a tiny strip of land that has been going on for centuries.
“None of those 3,500 civilians would be dead if Hamas hadn't done what it did.”
I assume you weren’t paying attention the previous half-dozen times Israel bombed the living shit out of Gaza?
And what about all the civilian deaths that predated Hamas? Hamas is not the underlying cause here. Hamas is a fairly new player, and one that was deliberately cultivated by Netanyahu.
If we’re talking specificity, then Hamas has even less to do with it. Hamas specifically killed those 1200 Israeli civilians. The Israeli Air Force specifically killed these 3500 Palestinian civilians.
Yes, the Israeli government would like you to believe that there is a causal link between the two sets of killings, but if you insist on seeing Hamas as having agency in their situation, you must also see the IDF as having agency in theirs.
Hamas *chose* to kill 1200 Israeli civilians. The Israeli government *chose* to kill 3500 Palestinian civilians.
You can’t have your cake and eat it, too. If you see the Israeli government as lacking agency in the situation, you must also see Hamas as lacking agency in the situation, as well.
So it seems like what you’re saying is that, just like Bibi, you support Hamas.
If you’ve been paying attention for forty years, and you can’t see that you’re supporting Hamas, you must be doing a really bad job of paying attention.
Nobody in the history of humanity slits the throats of ten year olds, gang rapes teenagers, massacres hundreds at a music festival, drags Holocaust survivors around by their hair, burns babies to death, drags families out of their homes and kills them execution style, slices babies out of the bellies of pregnant women and then stabs the babies to death, parades the half naked bodies of women they've killed around to cheers, mocks the victims on their own Facebook pages, etc, because they had bad living conditions. It's never happened, ever, and it didn't happen on 10/7. You are blaming the victims.
No one here, including Peter, is justifying Hamas' crimes. There is a huge difference between explaining and justifying.
Hamas members are ultimately responsible for their actions, and I certainly agree that they need to pay the price (I just hope Israel can proceed intelligently and minimize the deaths of civilians in Gaza, without putting its soldiers at undue risk).
But I think it is also undoubtedly true that Hamas has gained the level of support they have in Palestinian society because of the policies of Netanyahu and the settler right that have systematically undermined moderate Palestinians to make it easier to justify West Bank settlement.
Just as history has judged the European policies in the wake of World War I for helping pave the way for the rise of the Nazis, history will judge Netanyahu and the settlers for helping pave the way for the rise of Hamas. That doesn't excuse the actions of Hamas any more than it does the action of the Nazis. But understanding what created the conditions for these types of movements to emerge is important to preventing them from happening again.
And the reality is that any society is capable of producing barbarism. I don't believe that the Hamas fighters who attacked innocents in Israel were any worse than Lieutenant Calley or Baruch Goldstein. And the fact that there are some in Israel who still venerate Goldstein tells you about the darkness that exists in every human society.
What separates Israel from Palestinian society is that Israel has generally kept the Hamas wing of its society on the fringes and without power. But in fairness to the Palestinians, it's easier to do so when you're winning and have hope.
Of course Peter is justifying Hamas's crimes.
"Because people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do."
You "can't blame them" for murdering dozens of people at a desert rave. You can't! It's just what human beings do.
No, Peter didn't say "you can't blame them." And I would bet any amount of money he would say that's not what he meant.
Certainly, I believe you can blame them. And I support sending the IDF in to capture or kill them. I believe they deserve it. Lots of people do live in difficult circumstances without committing atrocities.
But I believe that Netanyahu and the settler movement are ALSO to blame, both for creating the conditions that allowed Hamas to thrive and for focusing the IDF's attention in the wrong place. Now the fact that I blame Netanyahu doesn't mean I think he should be killed; just voted out of office. And I believe the West Bank settlements should be disbanded (except perhaps for a few near the border that can exchange for in land swaps).
You must not have read the article you're commenting on. The beginning of the final paragraph:
"All these people who want to just go in and destroy Hamas, right, and do unbelievable damage in Gaza, I really believe that if they were listening more to Palestinians, they would be asking themselves the question: what kind of Palestinian response? What kind of Palestinian resistance? Because people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do. "
Peter is indisputably justifying Hamas' crimes. This will be his legacy.
I don't think I'm the one that didn't read far enough. Here is the final line of Peter's essay (before a couple of admin announcements about what is coming next).
"Just again, it’s not to excuse what Hamas did in any way."
He literally could not have been any more clear in saying he doesn't excuse Hamas.
I think the fact that you completely misread both the subtext and text of what Peter is saying is something that should make you reflect. And while I obviously don't know you well to be sure about this Anonymous, I'd suggest the root problem may be that you don't want to confront the truth of what Peter is saying and are looking for an excuse to avoid having to think about a substantive response.
Reread the passage you quoted above. Do you disagree that "people are going to resist oppression. You can’t blame them. That’s just what human beings do."
To me that is wholly true. Now you certainly can still blame people for HOW they choose to resist oppression, and I 100% blame Hamas for their barbarism (and apparently Peter does too). But I do think there is a cycle of oppression that needs to be broken if there is ever going to be peace for Israelis and Palestinians. And I certainly blame the Palestinians for that cycle as much as Israelis. But no matter who is to blame, things need to changes, and as the dominant force that change is going to have to be driven by Israel. Here is my belief for what needs to happen:
https://gordonstrause.substack.com/p/israel-and-the-palestinians
Sorry, but after 3000 words justifying it and blaming the victims, a pithy "this is not an excuse" doesn't cut the mustard. Beinart just gave Palestine a boat load of excuses for mass murder and gang rape, and they are going to point to his arguments when they do it again in the future. Not buying it.
Palestine is not "resisting oppression." That is Beinart projecting his own cognitive biases and experiences on somebody else's actions. The Palestinian leadership has said over and over why they do what they do: because they want to genocide the Israelis. You just choose not to listen to them. There is no cycle of violence: there is Palestine murdering Israeli and Israel stopping them from murdering more.
I’m pretty sure Winters is justifying Hamas’s crimes…
Anonymous. You’re using a lot of unconfirmed incidents there to bolster your “argument”. Do better.
There’s a reason Anonymous is Anonymous. (It’s much easier to be deliberately obtuse while wearing a Guy Fawkes mask, apparently.)
First of all Jews are not “white” in the European and popular sense. Quoting Dr King to equate the US civil rights movement to Hamas/Palestinians is deeply flawed and shows just how deluded and neurotic you are…no Israeli Jews have been present in Gaza for nearly a generation …when you talk about violence and blockades they are to an event the result of Hamas/PIJ attacks, aggression and violence…you are a condescending leftist elitist because in your own mind you do not think the Palestinians should be expected to live up to your progressive visions because they are Arab…comparing Zionist Jews to European colonialists and chauvinistic nationalists is incorrect and naive…you fail to comprehensively look at the causes of Palestinian suffering and conveniently ignore the corrupt, brutal and absent Palestinian leadership while faulting Israel for things it cannot possibly control…your thinking is reminiscent of Holocaust victims who blamed other Jews for Nazi Anti Semitism…Hamas does not care about how poor, downtrodden or impacted by violence any Palestinians are…they care about Salafism and destroying Israel and any Western influence in the Middle East and world…they would have done the same thing no matter what their living conditions in Gaza because that’s their reason to exist…TO KILL JEWS AND DESTROY ISRAEL…why can’t you admit that? Because it does not fit your narrative and obsolete revolutionary thinking…feeling sorry for someone who hates you and will kill you is useless when you are dead…Beinart you are intellectually and morally dead and when our nation looks at you in the future they will feel ashamed that you were alive
Did you see this? “A 6-year-old boy was being buried Monday and his mother was hospitalized with stab wounds after their 71-year-old landlord attacked them because of their Muslim faith and high emotions over the Israel-Hamas war globally and nationwide, police said.”
So should we see this in a context of the history of Jewish and Palestinian strife?
Of course not! This is a crime that needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
I suggest you stop equivocating. Its insulting to the intelligence.
What happened in Gaza is a lot simpler than you think. Hamas has a genocidal hatred of Jews. Full stop . It has nothing to do with Palestine it has everything to do with Jews and Jew hatred.
Ran. Seriously. Stop. This is your mother speaking. Don’t ever reveal you’re a simpleton in public ever again.
Pro-Palestinian protesters chant "Gas the Jews" outside Sydney Opera House
https://nypost.com/2023/10/10/reprehensible-protestors-chant-gas-the-jews-outside-sydney-opera-house/
Let me guess, their hatred and anti-Semitism is because they're so oppressed too, right?
> Protest organiser Palestine Action Group Sydney defended its right to protest "apartheid" in Israel but said a small number of "vile antisemitic attendees" had no place in their movement. We are an anti-racist and anti-colonial movement and we refuse to fight racism with racism," the group said in a post on social media. "If you are an antisemite, you are not welcome at our rallies and are not a part of our movement. As we did today, we will ask you to leave and we will continue to do this."
I am sorry, you make the Leftist identity error. Identity does not determine morality. Who you are does not forgive what you did. Your apologetics for Hamas are absurd and dangerous. This is what empowers evil to continue.
Context does determine the moral status of an action though.
There is no context that would justify killing innocent children other than the most brutal utilitarianism. If killing a baby on television before the super bowl would save 100 lives would you find that mathematics humane? Just? Certainly not.
Someone. Who justified the killing of innocent children? It seems to me you are having a hard time processing Peter’s reasoning
Peter is a "kumbaya" guy. That is the problem so many anti-colonialist apologists are having now. They cannot process that the donations they may have made to the "Free Palestine" movements ultimately ended up in the hands of Hamas to kill innocents. Peter fears deeply he has blood on his hands. I fear he does too.
Utter drivel. Again, who justified the killing of innocent children?
What is your solution to the current situation? Wipe out Hamas? Have you thought that through? There is no military solution short of expelling or killing ALL of the Palestinians. But even the consequences of that are impossible to predict.
Lol @ 'anti-colonialist apologists'. 'Apologist' is used in a negative sense, so the fact that you put it after 'anti-colonialist' says everything we need to know about your attitude toward colonialism and colonized peoples.
My claim is not that it's justified, but that it's morally gray. I've already explained the reasoning behind that in the comment above (my main comment that isn't a reply to anyone else but is address Peter Beinart directly).
“I am sorry, you make the Leftist identity error. Identity does not determine morality. Who you are does not forgive what you did. Your apologetics for the IDF are absurd and dangerous. This is what empowers evil to continue.”
So what you’re saying is that, unlike Peter, you support Hamas?
Please re-read my comment: apologetics for Hamas is dangerous and evil.
I’m glad you agree it was evil for Netanyahu to have spent all this time supporting Hamas.
That is a separste issue, and you know it. Don't be smug. Bibi must go, yes for so many bad drcisions, that miscalculation was one of them. How the left contorts itself to justify their stupidity.
I should apologize for lumping you together with all the dishonest smarm in this comment section, then… 😬
(I agree that it’s a mistake for so many people to think that opposing Likud must inherently require one to support Hamas. Plenty of Likudniks push this angle in bad faith, and then some people on the left are credulous enough in believing this lie that they go further and openly support Hamas.)
Honestly I understand. Thank you for your kindness. Israel will endure. We will work together to assure that!
Allow me to recap this piece for those who have already reached their six pages this year:
-Hamas are just like Ukraine, Martin Luther King Jr, the Native Americans, and Nelson Mandela
-Hamas are not responsible for their own behavior.
-Hundreds of people justifying Hamas' gang rape and massacre is "a little frightening."
-What Hamas did is mostly because of Israel.
-The attacks are bad but a "lack of permission to narrative" is "a bigger problem."
-You can't blame Hamas for what it did, any other human being in the same situation would do the same.
And finally, you should in no way interpret any of this to mean that Peter excuses Hamas' actions. Perish the thought!
Haaretz.com @haaretzcom Oct 9
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
FYI Thoughtful/Winters openly threatened me in another thread here, just so you understand the integrity of the person you’re dealing with.
Yes, I see. A number of people come every week just to contradict or attack Peter and anybody who expresses support for his views, who happily are more numerous. As in the US in general. Slow but measurable progress.
Similarly, here's Peter and the rest's views, summarized:
Hamas and Company: Massacres hundreds of people, burned babies, rape, etc. etc. etc.
Peter and the rest: Well, you have to understand the historical context. Resisting oppression is a natural instinct. Obvious response to poor conditions. Walk in their shoes. Try to be understanding.
Israel: Blockades Gaza, sets up checkpoints, airstrikes on Hamas militants.
Peter and the rest: Apartheid, apartheid, apartheid, genocide, ethnic cleansing, Jewish supremacy, apartheid.
The double standards and hypocrisy are just so obvious and so disgusting. Peter and the rest bend over backwards to "explain"/justify Hamas' war crimes, but never give Israel the slightest benefit of the doubt or any assumption of good intentions. It's completely ridiculous.
Winters’ own double standards and hypocrisy are just so obvious and so disgusting. You really don’t believe in *anything*, do you? Tsk tsk tsk.
I have no double standards, and I'd ask you to give me an example, except we both know you don't have one. Why are you so obsessed with me?
Have you sanitized your keyboard, yet, Winters?
What Hamas did was reprehensible, what Israel is doing is equally reprehensible.
“Hannah Arendt wrote about the banality of evil; what we are witnessing now is the fever of orchestrated revenge. This revenge can only be carried out at the pitch we are witnessing when the context of subjugation, oppression, and dehumanisation already exists. The bombing of Gaza is not merely a reaction to Hamas’ abhorrent, disgusting, unforgivable violence, but a continuum of the dehumanisation of Palestinians. After Hamas’ attack, people asked “how” this could happen, given Israel’s level of surveillance. No one needed to ask “why”. Everyone knows the context.” Una Mullaly
No what Israel is doing is much much worse than anything Hamas has done.
Haaretz.com @haaretzcom Oct 9
“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” Netanyahu told his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy"
Professor get your mind out of “the ghetto”
Why do you hate Jews so much?
Thank you Peter. I think we can both condemn Hamas's war crimes and understand the context of unending deprivation and oppression in which it occurred. I appreciate your trying to get those who see this in terms of pure evil to see when they themselves would be more capable of seeing the context in which these atrocities occurred. You are trying to get them to see the victimized conditions in which these perpetrators (of atrocities) acted.
My suggestion, however, is that you go beyond our/their ability to empathize with American Indians/Native Americans who committed atrocities against civilians as acts of resistance to seeing ourselves as capable of perpetrating "evil" too - Here I mean look at events like the Sand Creek Massacre where Euro-white settlers committed atrocities every bit as heinous as those Hamas committed last week - and those Euro-white settlers were not acting out of resistance to their own oppression, rather they acted out of an ideology of supremacy - white supremacy, their own supremacy, morally and politically, over the Indigenous peoples whose land and resources they wanted to take wrongfully and unjustly.
The point is that what Hamas is capable of, so are we. It does not excuse either and in my view we need to sort out and hold responsible those who perpetrate war crimes now that we have mechanisms for doing that. And, once the violence has ended (sooner is better) we absolutely must do the work of liberating Palestinians from the oppression and deprivations of the occupation so that they live with equal rights in every way, including their collective expression of language, culture, and identity, to Israeli Jews and everyone else. And we in the US have a lot of reconciliation work to do as well - with Indigenous as well as other BIPOC people and our own history of injustice and injury.
Franke Wilmer. I agree with your post. I would add that we know for a fact that Jews are capable of acts similar to what Hamas did, as is any group. One only needs to read what happened at Deir Yassin, and not only were these acts largely tolerated in Israel, two of the perpetrators’ leaders were later elected to the highest office in Israel.
I am no fan of luxury ethics and the boutique morality that comes from them. When you apologize for the behavior of Hamas from the safety and wealth of the academic environs you harm the living Palestinians and living Israelis who must live in the brutal blood soaked pain of what such wretched morals allow.
I condemn, not apologize for, the behavior of Hamas. The ability to dehumanize others and act inhumanely toward those you dehumanize is, in my view, a universal quality of the human condition. We are all capable of it and must be vigilant over it. and those who do so should be held accountable.
Geopolitics seem off topic, but…
The problem for Israel now is not apparent moral-obtuseness and equivocation of left-wing activists on western campuses and their apparent sympathy for Hamas. It’s the fact that it’s the 300 million Arabs that surround the 7 million Israeli Jews that are having apparent sympathy with Hamas.
Where are the Abraham Accords countries now? The Emiratis had some measured assurances, but there was a mass rally of 10,000s in Morocco in support of Hamas over the weekend. Another in Bahrain.
Saudi Arabia’s MBS and Iran’s Raisi had a phone call about their common support for the Palestinian cause—as each jockey’s for position to project themselves as the regional champion of the Palestinians. Meanwhile the Lebanese border seems bound to erupt.
The set up for the 2023 Gaza war strikes me as following a similar path as the 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
Most of the world stood aghast at the 1972 Munich Olympics massacre and the hijackings that followed and. against Black September and and the PLO.
Finally, in 1982, the Begin government had had enough and decided to crush the PLO for good—much like they say must be done to Hamas today. Then the atrocities started.
Over the course of the next 5 years, the Nobel prize winner Menachem Begin would resign in disgrace, Israel would be isolated in condemnation by the world, the PLO would escape and later be recognized as the rightful representatives of the Palestinian people by the Reagan administration, Hamas would emerge to take the hardline rejectionist position vacated by the PLO, and in the process Israel would inadvertently create a base of support for an enemy in Hezbollah that was 10x more potent than the PLO.
Excellent synthesis, even with the bits left out for economy (notably why tacit/passive support by Israel for Hamas to undermine PLO is an essential ingredient in the now). Each wave will be more extreme. If ever the Arab street is emancipated...
And don't forget those Abraham Accord countries have authoritarian governments where the "will of the people" are irrelevant. Those governments apparently feel that a stable relationship with Israel will in part help keep them in power and enrich them. The people they govern? Not so much. They still will be subjugated and no doubt their bitterness will spill over to whoever assist the dictators. Israel is now sleeping with some nefarious characters and the "ordinary Joe's" of those countries are taking notice.
When Israel doesn't make peace with Arab authoritarians, you accuse them of being warmongers. When Israel does make peace with Arab authoritarians, you say they are "sleeping with some nefarious characters."
Most of us noticed that the Arab world is awash in oppression and human rights violations BEFORE it could be contorted to attack Israel yet again. Welcome to the party, pal.
You forgot everyone’s favorite warmongers and nefarious characters: the United States government. Really, as long as Israel acts as an instrument of US foreign policy, how could anyone ever think them seriously interested in peace?!?
“ Most of us noticed that the Arab world is awash in oppression and human rights violations BEFORE it could be contorted to attack Israel yet again.”
Israel the oppressor joining the Arab oppressors, yes?
Hey, man, before you smear Israel as an oppressor, try to see things from their perspective. Walk in their shoes. Think about the conditions they live in. Because people are going to respond when they're attack. They just will.
“Hey, man, before you smear Gaza as an oppressor, try to see things from their perspective. Walk in their shoes. Think about the conditions they live in. Because people are going to respond when they're attack. They just will.”
So what you’re saying, Winters, is that you support Hamas?
Why are you misquoting me? I didn't say anything about Gaza.
I don’t get how progressives and leftists, including many at Jewish Currents, can erroneously and hysterically accuse Israel of genocidal intentions toward the Palestinians, and ignore the policies and ideologies of Iran, Hamas, and Hizbollah, which have been and continue to be in fact literally and explicitly genocidal toward Jews. Fortunately some are out there reminding people of the truth, e.g. Yair Rosenberg in The Atlantic.
When has Iran, Hamas, or Hizbollah done any genocide against Jews? Advocating for something and actually doing it are not the same.
So you didn't notice Hamas going to villages in Israel and indiscriminately killing anyone they could get their hands on? Or maybe that's not genocidal, since anointed Arabs are the ones doing that instead of filthy Jews.
“So you didn't notice Israeli settlers going to villages in the West Bank and indiscriminately killing anyone they could get their hands on? Or maybe that's not genocidal, since anointed Jews are the ones doing that instead of filthy Arabs.”
So what you’re saying, Winters, is that you support Hamas?
Why are you misquoting me? I didn't say anything about Israeli settlers.
Oh shut up.
Touched a nerve, eh? What's the matter, you're the only one who's allowed to accuse people of genocide?
No you're just incredibly irritating and the most insincere person I've ever come across in my life.
Yes, I'm sure having your intellectual dishonesty and hypocrisy exposed is very irritating. As for my "insincerity", I'd ask you to give me an example, but we both know you don't have one.
Not that all of Iran or even the Iranian govt. have advocated genocide against Jews, but even if they did that's not equivalent to an actual genocide.
It's a fault of Western governments to support Israel over the preferences of their own populations (24% in UK sympathise with Palestine-10% with Israel, yet Gov and opposition support Israel) If the US conditioned its support to Israel on human/civil rights basis we would have the beginning of a solution. It doesn't so we don't. US unconditional support of Israel is the core of the problem.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/sympathies-for-the-israelis-palestinian-conflict
and
https://yougov.co.uk/international/articles/45869-attitudes-israel-palestine-conflict-western-europe
all this litmus testing of outrage over carnage committed by hamas is a distraction. hamas is going to do what hamas does. where have you been for the last 35 years?
what should leave jaws on the floor is how the netanyahu gov't, by most appearances, allowed it to happen--that should be the target of anyone's outrage. the calamity also exposes the settler/southern israel divide for the world to see (especially perilous when the other enemies of israel know this). the decision to leave the south unprotected represents a sick, cynical political calculation that exploits that divide.
Yeah, Likud treating their own ineptitude as some sort of “I told you so” gotcha is really something… Who has been running Israel for the better part of the past thirty years? Hmmm?
Anyway as for the Israeli response… Bibi’s gonna do what Bibi’s gonna do. (Bibi’s gonna embezzle more money from the Israeli government, and Bibi’s gonna take more bribes, if you ask me.)