Mr. Shavit I agree with part of your other comment namely "the occupation corrupts the soul". That said it is preposterous to suggest that Israel not Israel-Palestine as Professor Beinart aspires, is not a Democratic Country. It has a Knesset whose structure you are no doubt well aware of, and the Palestinian/ Arab citizens of Israel or …
Mr. Shavit I agree with part of your other comment namely "the occupation corrupts the soul". That said it is preposterous to suggest that Israel not Israel-Palestine as Professor Beinart aspires, is not a Democratic Country. It has a Knesset whose structure you are no doubt well aware of, and the Palestinian/ Arab citizens of Israel or as we would say behind the Green Line can and do have rights and are well represented in the Knesset. They were the King makers of the prior government too bad they decided to break it. Is there discrimination? Absolutely. There is discrimination in many Democratic countries. The US is a prime example.
While I am totally opposed to Netanyahu and his regime, as no doubt almost everyone on this site, I am very heartened by the number and nonviolent style of Israel's protestors that have brought at least for now a temporary halt to the "reforms". Such a protest in most other parts of the Western world would no doubt have had significant casualties by now. Even Tel Aviv's police chief participated in the protest.
What I meant by writing that it is silly for Palestinians to complain about Democracy, is the fact that it has never been practiced among them. In Gaza Hamas threw the opposition off the rooftop, in areas where the PA was in charge, they decided not to have elections for fear Hamas would win (which of course they would). There is no democratic tradition there. (there is no Muslim majority country anywhere that practices Democracy). That is part of the folly of Professor Beinart's solution approach.
There is too much to talk about Israel’s democracy; I know how much democracy the Israeli Arabs have, maybe more than some of our neighbors but not even close to what Jews have, and let’s not start to talk about an occupation that Israel maintain for over 50 years that will destroy our country. I was in the army from 1964-67 and have a good memory.
I would say there is not enough talk about Israel's Democracy.
Since you were in the army you would know very well two things, and the first better than me, that war is ugly! People do things that otherwise they would never do. The second that between 1967 and 1977 there were no settlements as Israel waited for negotiations to return the West Bank. No one came from the Palestinians and you may recall the 3 Nos "No negotiations, No recognition, and No peace".
Unfortunately, in the post 67 "Miracle" years the Orthodox communities grew and pressed for settlement of "Judea and Samaria". I was there when I saw the Likud unfortunately take over and open the floodgates to many Americans. But the reality was that the Palestinians foolishly still depended on the Arab league and mostly acted up by attacking Jews wherever they could (Munich). They had no program other than a replacement of the Jews program (still the majority view among many.) Even on this site in a few brief conversations I had with Palestinians it has been we want our state and we want a return to Israel.
Thanks for keeping the conversation very civilized. From 1967 to 1977, a lot happened in Israel, and there is much debate about the facts and who did and said what; the settlement started much earlier than you site, but we do not need to argue about that. Many critical leaders in Israel spoke about what would happen if, Sorry to say, it got much worse. The final words must be that no country can maintain occupation by force of 50% of the people and remain peaceful and democratic.
Mr. Shavit, I decided to look into the period 1967-1977 and yes you are right there were settlements, but they were in the main small semi-military on the Jordan river designed to implement the then Israeli Allon Plan as a defensive shield. The other ones were a recreation of the Gush Etzion settlements that were in place prior to the creation of the State of Israel.
As you may recall Kfar Etzion in the Gush area was put under siege during the war in 1947 and the then occupants were slaughtered by local Palestinian/Arab villagers. The other 3 nearby communities surrendered to the Arab Legion the next day and their towns were plundered and then burned down. You know the kind of thing that supposedly only the Jews did.
So these communities were reestablished for historical symbolism unlike the others in teh Jordan valley, mostly a deserted area, that were established for security reasons. Other than Maale Adumim (40,000) also in the Gush Etzion sector, and part of which is on the annexed Jerusalem land, the total population even today of these communities is under 30,000 hardly a bar to a peaceful settlement.
Good work, just a few more words; the warning was there all along that this would not end well. About the experience of 1968, we would travel in the middle of the night to the west bank to eat without fear or weapons. The Palestinians hated the Jordanians who ruled over them more than they hated us. After all, it was not the Palestinian army that we fought in 1967. It was the Jordanian army. It is complicated, but the consensus among people I respect is that we blew the chance for peace right after 1967, and the victory distorted our vision.
You are for sure right. I recall first reading Harkabi’s The Bar Kochva Syndrome when it came out right after Likud started to approve settlements in the West Bank warning about the future. Then only available in Hebrew. He also wrote Israel’s Fateful Hour. He used the Bar Kochva rebellion to show the folly of the “G-d is on our side” religious fanatics 1,800 years ago, attacking Rome at the height of its power and causing the Jewish people its state—The Judeans were exiled. The remaining remnant melted into Christianity and later Islam and are now Palestinians. These books point out the nonsense of Israel as a superpower. Israel often punches above its weight class.
I now fear that Beinart’s aspiration “Israel-Palestine” will be brought on inadvertently by Netanyahu’s need to pull a rabbit out of a hat by attacking Iran. Such an attack might destroy Iran’s immediate nuclear project. But anyone thinking there will be no response from Iran and its proxies that would leave much of Israel in smoke, is for sure smoking a lot of bad weed. A bloodied Israel and totally dependent on America’s goodwill will be forced to live next to an ascendant Palestine. Such an Israel will be populated by the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir the “start-up Nation” will be gone.
Not just Palestinians, but Muslims and especially Arab Muslims. I keep making this point (I, a person living in a Muslim majority society) and it keeps getting ignored by Peter Beinart and others.
Mr. Shavit I agree with part of your other comment namely "the occupation corrupts the soul". That said it is preposterous to suggest that Israel not Israel-Palestine as Professor Beinart aspires, is not a Democratic Country. It has a Knesset whose structure you are no doubt well aware of, and the Palestinian/ Arab citizens of Israel or as we would say behind the Green Line can and do have rights and are well represented in the Knesset. They were the King makers of the prior government too bad they decided to break it. Is there discrimination? Absolutely. There is discrimination in many Democratic countries. The US is a prime example.
While I am totally opposed to Netanyahu and his regime, as no doubt almost everyone on this site, I am very heartened by the number and nonviolent style of Israel's protestors that have brought at least for now a temporary halt to the "reforms". Such a protest in most other parts of the Western world would no doubt have had significant casualties by now. Even Tel Aviv's police chief participated in the protest.
What I meant by writing that it is silly for Palestinians to complain about Democracy, is the fact that it has never been practiced among them. In Gaza Hamas threw the opposition off the rooftop, in areas where the PA was in charge, they decided not to have elections for fear Hamas would win (which of course they would). There is no democratic tradition there. (there is no Muslim majority country anywhere that practices Democracy). That is part of the folly of Professor Beinart's solution approach.
There is too much to talk about Israel’s democracy; I know how much democracy the Israeli Arabs have, maybe more than some of our neighbors but not even close to what Jews have, and let’s not start to talk about an occupation that Israel maintain for over 50 years that will destroy our country. I was in the army from 1964-67 and have a good memory.
I would say there is not enough talk about Israel's Democracy.
Since you were in the army you would know very well two things, and the first better than me, that war is ugly! People do things that otherwise they would never do. The second that between 1967 and 1977 there were no settlements as Israel waited for negotiations to return the West Bank. No one came from the Palestinians and you may recall the 3 Nos "No negotiations, No recognition, and No peace".
Unfortunately, in the post 67 "Miracle" years the Orthodox communities grew and pressed for settlement of "Judea and Samaria". I was there when I saw the Likud unfortunately take over and open the floodgates to many Americans. But the reality was that the Palestinians foolishly still depended on the Arab league and mostly acted up by attacking Jews wherever they could (Munich). They had no program other than a replacement of the Jews program (still the majority view among many.) Even on this site in a few brief conversations I had with Palestinians it has been we want our state and we want a return to Israel.
Thanks for keeping the conversation very civilized. From 1967 to 1977, a lot happened in Israel, and there is much debate about the facts and who did and said what; the settlement started much earlier than you site, but we do not need to argue about that. Many critical leaders in Israel spoke about what would happen if, Sorry to say, it got much worse. The final words must be that no country can maintain occupation by force of 50% of the people and remain peaceful and democratic.
Mr. Shavit, I decided to look into the period 1967-1977 and yes you are right there were settlements, but they were in the main small semi-military on the Jordan river designed to implement the then Israeli Allon Plan as a defensive shield. The other ones were a recreation of the Gush Etzion settlements that were in place prior to the creation of the State of Israel.
As you may recall Kfar Etzion in the Gush area was put under siege during the war in 1947 and the then occupants were slaughtered by local Palestinian/Arab villagers. The other 3 nearby communities surrendered to the Arab Legion the next day and their towns were plundered and then burned down. You know the kind of thing that supposedly only the Jews did.
So these communities were reestablished for historical symbolism unlike the others in teh Jordan valley, mostly a deserted area, that were established for security reasons. Other than Maale Adumim (40,000) also in the Gush Etzion sector, and part of which is on the annexed Jerusalem land, the total population even today of these communities is under 30,000 hardly a bar to a peaceful settlement.
Wars have consequences for both sides.
Good work, just a few more words; the warning was there all along that this would not end well. About the experience of 1968, we would travel in the middle of the night to the west bank to eat without fear or weapons. The Palestinians hated the Jordanians who ruled over them more than they hated us. After all, it was not the Palestinian army that we fought in 1967. It was the Jordanian army. It is complicated, but the consensus among people I respect is that we blew the chance for peace right after 1967, and the victory distorted our vision.
You are for sure right. I recall first reading Harkabi’s The Bar Kochva Syndrome when it came out right after Likud started to approve settlements in the West Bank warning about the future. Then only available in Hebrew. He also wrote Israel’s Fateful Hour. He used the Bar Kochva rebellion to show the folly of the “G-d is on our side” religious fanatics 1,800 years ago, attacking Rome at the height of its power and causing the Jewish people its state—The Judeans were exiled. The remaining remnant melted into Christianity and later Islam and are now Palestinians. These books point out the nonsense of Israel as a superpower. Israel often punches above its weight class.
I now fear that Beinart’s aspiration “Israel-Palestine” will be brought on inadvertently by Netanyahu’s need to pull a rabbit out of a hat by attacking Iran. Such an attack might destroy Iran’s immediate nuclear project. But anyone thinking there will be no response from Iran and its proxies that would leave much of Israel in smoke, is for sure smoking a lot of bad weed. A bloodied Israel and totally dependent on America’s goodwill will be forced to live next to an ascendant Palestine. Such an Israel will be populated by the likes of Smotrich and Ben-Gvir the “start-up Nation” will be gone.
My apologies Mr. Shavit, and to others on this site. You are correct there were a few settlements in the West Bank starting in 1968 I misread it.
It is also fair to say the Labor government would have preferred to negotiate an exit from the West Bank minus East Jerusalem.
Not just Palestinians, but Muslims and especially Arab Muslims. I keep making this point (I, a person living in a Muslim majority society) and it keeps getting ignored by Peter Beinart and others.