Our call this week, for paid subscribers, will be at its regular time, Friday at Noon ET. Given the speed at which things are changing, I have no idea where Israeli politics will be by this Friday. Regardless, we’ll be joined by two of the smartest people I know to discuss the current protests and whether they could contain the seeds of a movement against not just the judicial overhaul but against occupation and apartheid. Our first guest will be Orly Noy, the
The primary purpose of the "reform" is to support the occupation and Jewish superiority. The new right in Israel will have four years to replan that same "reform" but in stages. The occupation corrupts the soul and that soul will never have a real democracy.
Palestinians are fighting for domination of the land. Their ideology makes democracy impossible. How can there be equality between an indigenous people who belong to the land and a foreign non-people who are occupying it. Black Americans accepted white Americans as American. Black South Africans accepted white South Africans as South Africans. Palestinians do not accept Jews as Palestinian.
“Palestinians don’t accept Jews as Palestinian” - that’s because more and more Jews swept in full of hubris and chauvenism and set upon destroying the Palestinian society and ways. Without the supremacist attitude, Jews would have (as they had pre-1948) been accepted by the Palestinian Arabs.
Hubris, chauvinism and capitalization of the myth of being the "chosen people" are what buttresses the injustices against the Palestinians. The myth has been adopted by America and now both these two white nations see themselves as special, and will be do anything, to prove that, including the murder of the indigenous people. Torah is clear that Yahweh gave instructions on how to clear the "holy land" of the Gentiles. Nothing much will change until people give up these delusions.
It is a right to have a safe place to live. It was clear to Jews after the Holocaust that Europe could no longer provide refuge and that Jewish state was needed. And while its true that the creation and maintenance of this state has come at a cost, you mustn't lose sight of the humanity that drove Israel's creation.
To your antisemitic point about 'the chosen people', its clear that you're not as smart nor as well read as you think you are. The delusion of chosen-ness is universal. Every people believes that the cosmic destiny of the universe hinges upon them. Look at what Hamas wrote in their refurbished (2017) charter.
"Palestine is the spirit of the Ummah and its central cause; it is the SOUL OF HUMANITY and its living conscience."
Every human being has a right to a safe place to live. The Palestinians had nothing to do with Holocaust.Antisemitism mainly Christian is to blame, as is Germany. Zionists had been promised land in other places like East Africa but they rebuffed. We know why? Torah says otherwise.
Why do these innocent Palestinians have to suffer? Keep in mind that the land was being given out by British colonists. At the time, scramble for land by these colonists was ongoing. Palestine is still under occupation while other colonists have long been driven out in colonial countries.
Let me start by saying that the Jews are not chosen. They are not. They are not special. Many do not acknowledge Jew's god, and so Yahweh's commands are nonsense to many. Chosen may be universal but Jew's is taken to be especial such that all in the world are to acknowledge their choseness. Torah is clear that the Jews are superior to the Gentiles. Torah reports that Yahweh, the divine landlord, gave Israel to his chosen people, adding that they are to clear the land of Gentiles lest "they become thorns on their flesh." The fact that Jews are taken to be special is strengthened by the fact that Christians, white Christians esp in USA, have also fallen for this delusion despite their scripture saying otherwise. Jews are not chosen. No one is chosen by any god. We are all EQUAL. This is not antisemitic. It's not antisemitic to diabuse this notion. It's humanism.
Repeating what was said ALL HUMAN BEINGS DESERVE A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE. So should every persecuted minority get to have their own country and ethnically cleanse whoever is in their way? NO
A majority of the Israeli public will hopefully one day realize that they are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy in the name of “security”: by occupying and oppressing the Palestinians and stripping them of most basic rights in an apartheid state in the name of security, they are making Israeli security worse and worse.
It’s complete fear-mongerimg propaganda driven by right wing Israeli politicians and pundits that Palestinians as a whole want Jews out of Palestine. The vast majority want to simply co-exist in peace and want a decent life with economic opportunities. But Israel and the PA corrupt leaders won’t let happen.
I went to a demo yesterday by Toronto Jews demanding democracy, wearing a sign that says JEWS AGAINST ISRAEL'S CRIMES. I asked a couple of them whether they'd want to live in Canada if it were not a state of all its citizens. I'm not sure they knew what I was talking about.
People don't have to be talented or remarkable or both to deserve basic human rights.
So you don't support the Abraham Accords which - against the wishes of the Palestinians and the citizens of those countries - ally the apartheid Israeli state with the undemocratic Arab governments?
Undemocratic? What do you mean, undemocratic? I thought only Israel was so evil and so terrible that it's an ethnic-based nation state. Are you say multiple Arab governments are also ethnic-based nation states?? Where's the anti-Zionist movement for all of them?
Undemocratic? As in apartheid Israel. You seem to have a great deal of time, Winters, to hang around on this site spouting your lies. We're not listening.
Then stop responding to me, James. I know it's inconvenient for you guys, but Israel as a Jewish state is not exceptional, it's quite common for countries to be ethnic-based nation states.
Please list such democracies where 25% of their populations are NOT the ruling ethnicity. Please don’t list places like Japan etc, it’s not even a comparison, they are basically 98-99% Japanese, not 75%. This is just more of your lazy whataboutism to deflect from the fact that Israel needs to do much better
More lazy whataboutism to deflect from the actual argument. Who gives a shit about Jordan, Egypt, etc we aren’t talking about them, we are talking about Israel
Imagine, imagine, imagine...you say if Israel, kumbaya, accepted Palestinians as equals. How about when Palestinians accept Israel??
These are the people who commemorate terrorists who murder innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in nightclubs, and walking down the street. Who pay pensions to the families of suicide bombers to incentivize others to do the same. Who teach their children to hate Jews using the language Nazis used.
Imagine if the Palestinians accepted Israel, accepted living in their own country in peace next to Israel, and accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...
No, this is nonsense (to avoid the 8 letter word that starts with a "b"). The vast majority of Palestinians want to be able to live their lives decently and not in a police state, which, sadly, is what the state of Israel is for the great majority of them; about one Palestinian --unarmed, civilian -- is killed by the IDF or the police per day. The great majority of Palestinians are not calling for the blood of Jews, That is false, as you must know, but must be the only way you can rationalise what is being done to the Palestinians. Of course, there are some Palestinians who do seek vengeance and blood just as their are many Jewish Israelis who do (of Palestinians), e.g. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Please take off your blinders and try to see this situation in its full complexity and with humanity.
Here’s the difference in the statistics that the media rarely explains: the Palestinians being killed are terrorists. Israeli security forces put themselves in danger trying to arrest these murderers. Palestinians target civilians unabashedly, intentionally. Understand???
One person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Stop making the “terrorists” fight for their freedoms, and there will be no more “terrorists”. Come on Israel! Shock the world. Dismantle the checkpoints, overnight, give the Arabs full rights, and watch them lay down their arms immediately. It’s all about the chauvenism of Jews, their supremacist attitude. That is what the resistance is all about.
Ha! Is that a joke? You don’t need to experiment with what that might look like. Go to the time before checkpoints, security forces working with the PA to root out terrorists, and the security fence along the border. Do you member what that looked like? Suicide bombers blowing up buses, nightclubs, and more.
No, the onus is not on Israel to change. It is on the Palestinians. They are the ones who reject Israel and their corrupt leaders are responsible for how their citizens live.
The escalating radicalization of Palestinian young men, such as the Lion’s Den, would not be happening if Israel treated the Palestinians with more dignity. Israeli society has been indoctrinated by hasbara not to do that. Frans de Waal did research with bonobos and chimpanzes and found that nothing evokes rage more than the perception or fact of UNFAIRNESS. Jews came to Palestine with the express purpose of not being fair to the Arabs there. The creation of Israel as a home for the Jews is the evidence.
False. The Arabs living in Israel in 1948 could stay, but many were duped by surrounding Arab countries to leave during the war and then return after the Jews lost. But the war didn’t turn out that way, and these Arabs were not allowed to return to victorious Israel (nor go to the surrounding Arab countries either except for Jordan.) Meanwhile, many Arabs stayed. Do you know what they are called today? Israeli citizens. And when asked whether they would want to become Palestinian citizens should a state emerge, over 95% said no, they’d rather stay Israeli.
As for the Palestinians, they will be treated with respect when they behave like they deserve respect. That means no terror attacks against Israelis, no teaching their children antisemitism and hatred of Israel, etc.
Haha, I’m not suggesting that Arabs are apes! Rather I spurn religion and believe that all humans are related to and share similarities with apes. Incidentally, dog researchers have found that fairness plays a big role in dog psychology as well. Maybe it’s universal for all creatures.
Murderers? They are freedom fighters and want their land back just like the Ukrainians. We all know what the Jews want. We have read Torah. They want to clear the "holy land " of Gentiles as commanded by Yahweh. The instructions on how to do this are clear and what they are doing and have been doing for decades is not without precedent. Joshua and others did it with the help of some god.
The vast majority of Palestinians want Israeli Jews dead. - "71% support the Palestinian armed attack on two Israeli settlers in Huwara. " - https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/938
"accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...""
You imagine how the Palestinians feel after losing their homes. They want to return to their homes. Why not right of return to Israel? Why do the Jews want to seclude themselves from others in a land stolen from others? How about we explore a right of return to Germany for the Jews? In fact Jews have a right of return to Germany and many are moving back in droves.
Dear Richard Jaffee and all deluded Jews, "You are not a chosen people, you are not special, other people do not believe in your god and are under no obligation to follow your god's commands. You share the world with others, who are your equal. Give up the delusions and have the Palestinians have their land. You can move back to Germany or join your brothers and sisters in USA.
Hit a nerve, ha? Give up the delusions and make this world a better place for the sake of everyone. Jews' sob story no longer hold any water; Palestinians are stuck in their land called Israel and Palestine while the Jews can move anyone around the world. Go back to Germany or USA. My compassion's with the disfranchised Palestinians.
I'm familiar with some of those organizations, Tamar. In fact, I've spoken to several of them. I invited Mairav and Orly for Friday precisely because they have been on the ground over the last few days and weeks. I've heard comments like yours from a few people recently--but, notably, not from any Palestinians.
Thanks for replying. When will you invite interview subjects active in the organizations you've spoken with— whether Jewish or Palestinian? If you're looking for comments from Palestinians, a few thoughts and suggestions. Do Palestinians subscribe to your Substack site page (as best as you can tell which can be impossible by name only)? If so, have you reached out to them for comments? Do you have Palestinian friends wherever they live who might subscribe to your site/page and comment on this and other posts? Now, I'm adding, Have you turned to Mairav and Orly for their Palestinian contacts as potential commenters (and interview subjects)? Regards from Tel Aviv
Today's message shows that you've not been "on the ground" in Israel in a long time. Your narrative (screed?) needs revisiting and revising in real time. Most unfortunate is your ignoring any of the thousands of Jewish Israelis actively seeking common ground with our Muslim neighbors both inside the Green Line and beyond. I encourage you to invite Israeli Jewish guests including "Physicians for Human Rights staff and volunteers, "Road to Recovery" drivers and coordinators, "The Parents Circle-Families Forum" participants and co-coordinators, "Rabbis for Human Rights" partners in harvesting olives, and "Combatants for Peace" activists now preparing to attend live or remote the 18th Annual Joint [Israel] Memorial Day Ceremony followed by the Joint Nakba Ceremony that informs about and honors the Palestinian experience.
on the last point you may well be right. the irony is that while many Jews think legal equality would lead to Jews being dominated or killed, many Palestinian intellectuals--having watched post-apartheid South Africa--fear that without decolonization, conditions on the ground might not fundamentally change
At this point you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t care very much what Palestinian intellectuals say; given how much of them spend their time justifying crimes against humanity. But if they really care so much about decolonization, they are welcome to go back to Yemen and Riyadh.
Bearing in mind that apartheid Israel is an ongoing crime of colonisation, murder, incarceration and generally working hard to make the lives of Palestinian people as hard and miserable as possible... it makes it hard for me to accept your good faith.
‘Why don’t the Ukrainians just protest for democracy for all Ukrainians and all Russians? One man one vote in Russia-Ukraine? Why are they using violence to protect an ethnostate that is not a state for all citizens?”
And yes, Beinart, I’m going to keep bringing up this point until you actually respond to it with something coherent and not just “Ukraine has a Jewish President lol.”
The answer is that Palestine has given the Israelis no reason to think they will treat the Israelis well if given a vote. In fact, there’s ever reason to think the Palestinians would take advantage of the situation to kill more Israelis and dance on their graves. Why? Because that’s what they are doing RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
The Israeli left is dead because Palestine stabbed it, blew it up, shot it, etc etc. Palestine has no one to blame but themselves.
Would you agree then that Ukraine is in fact a Ukrainian supremacist state with no right to remain Ukrainian supremacist? And that the best solution to their conflict with Russia is a single state, one man one vote, with everyone living together in equality?
Suppose a NATO-backed Ukraine successfully repels Russian forces in all territory in the internationally recognized pre-2014 borders and the Kyiv government moves to reassert sovereignty over that territory.
Now suppose further that, in retaliation, all pro-Russia Ukrainians from those territories were demoted to second-class citizenship or to no citizenship at all in the aftermath. They lost all recourse to petition the Kyiv government to address their needs and security. Western and diaspora Ukrainians were encouraged to move to the Donbas and subsidized to bulldoze the homes of the inhabitants and assert ownership of the land. The Ukrainian military could declare firing zones, no matter how specious and fraudulent, anywhere east of the Dnipro River and force evacuations.
Meanwhile all of Russia and the international community would condemn it (those anti-Ukrainian bigots!)
When all that happens, it might be worth taking your analogy seriously.
You’re changing the subject. This isn’t about the occupation. Read the article you linked to. The problem to Beinart and those like him is Jews having their own state. Try again.
This is a controversy involving Jewish citizens of Israel. They could not care about the Palestinians and your unending concern about their welfare means nothing. Please get off your soapbox !
Hello moron - 25% of Israeli citizens in the state of Israel are non-Jews - 21% of which are Arab, the rest Druze, Christian, etc. This does not include anyone in the OPT.
So 1 out of 4 citizens in Israel are explicitly and systematically discriminated against via Knesset laws and govt institutional practices when it comes to land, infrastructure, planning, education, healthcare, and industry resources and much more.
This judicial reform does affect these 25% of Israel citizens that do not have full citizenship or equal rights and the Supreme Court could make things worse for them because unfortunately none of the Basic Laws have a part that enshrines equality for all regardless of race, sex, religion, ethnicity, etc. Israel doesn’t have that and there for Supreme Court rulings with right wing judges could get even worse for the 25% ethnic minority population.
I’m tired of ignorant pro-Israeli commenters who thinks all citizens of Israel have equal rights… that is total bullshit they do not and never did. There is a two-class society in Israel where Jews are lavished with every resource first and little proportionally goes to non-Jews. And this doesn’t even cover the societal racism and discrimination non-Jews experience in public and at the workplace.
With all due respect Professor Beinart Palestinians talking wistfully about Democracy is more than a little silly. Its not something they have ever practiced in their home. Period end of story.
Mr. Shavit I agree with part of your other comment namely "the occupation corrupts the soul". That said it is preposterous to suggest that Israel not Israel-Palestine as Professor Beinart aspires, is not a Democratic Country. It has a Knesset whose structure you are no doubt well aware of, and the Palestinian/ Arab citizens of Israel or as we would say behind the Green Line can and do have rights and are well represented in the Knesset. They were the King makers of the prior government too bad they decided to break it. Is there discrimination? Absolutely. There is discrimination in many Democratic countries. The US is a prime example.
While I am totally opposed to Netanyahu and his regime, as no doubt almost everyone on this site, I am very heartened by the number and nonviolent style of Israel's protestors that have brought at least for now a temporary halt to the "reforms". Such a protest in most other parts of the Western world would no doubt have had significant casualties by now. Even Tel Aviv's police chief participated in the protest.
What I meant by writing that it is silly for Palestinians to complain about Democracy, is the fact that it has never been practiced among them. In Gaza Hamas threw the opposition off the rooftop, in areas where the PA was in charge, they decided not to have elections for fear Hamas would win (which of course they would). There is no democratic tradition there. (there is no Muslim majority country anywhere that practices Democracy). That is part of the folly of Professor Beinart's solution approach.
There is too much to talk about Israel’s democracy; I know how much democracy the Israeli Arabs have, maybe more than some of our neighbors but not even close to what Jews have, and let’s not start to talk about an occupation that Israel maintain for over 50 years that will destroy our country. I was in the army from 1964-67 and have a good memory.
I would say there is not enough talk about Israel's Democracy.
Since you were in the army you would know very well two things, and the first better than me, that war is ugly! People do things that otherwise they would never do. The second that between 1967 and 1977 there were no settlements as Israel waited for negotiations to return the West Bank. No one came from the Palestinians and you may recall the 3 Nos "No negotiations, No recognition, and No peace".
Unfortunately, in the post 67 "Miracle" years the Orthodox communities grew and pressed for settlement of "Judea and Samaria". I was there when I saw the Likud unfortunately take over and open the floodgates to many Americans. But the reality was that the Palestinians foolishly still depended on the Arab league and mostly acted up by attacking Jews wherever they could (Munich). They had no program other than a replacement of the Jews program (still the majority view among many.) Even on this site in a few brief conversations I had with Palestinians it has been we want our state and we want a return to Israel.
Thanks for keeping the conversation very civilized. From 1967 to 1977, a lot happened in Israel, and there is much debate about the facts and who did and said what; the settlement started much earlier than you site, but we do not need to argue about that. Many critical leaders in Israel spoke about what would happen if, Sorry to say, it got much worse. The final words must be that no country can maintain occupation by force of 50% of the people and remain peaceful and democratic.
Mr. Shavit, I decided to look into the period 1967-1977 and yes you are right there were settlements, but they were in the main small semi-military on the Jordan river designed to implement the then Israeli Allon Plan as a defensive shield. The other ones were a recreation of the Gush Etzion settlements that were in place prior to the creation of the State of Israel.
As you may recall Kfar Etzion in the Gush area was put under siege during the war in 1947 and the then occupants were slaughtered by local Palestinian/Arab villagers. The other 3 nearby communities surrendered to the Arab Legion the next day and their towns were plundered and then burned down. You know the kind of thing that supposedly only the Jews did.
So these communities were reestablished for historical symbolism unlike the others in teh Jordan valley, mostly a deserted area, that were established for security reasons. Other than Maale Adumim (40,000) also in the Gush Etzion sector, and part of which is on the annexed Jerusalem land, the total population even today of these communities is under 30,000 hardly a bar to a peaceful settlement.
Not just Palestinians, but Muslims and especially Arab Muslims. I keep making this point (I, a person living in a Muslim majority society) and it keeps getting ignored by Peter Beinart and others.
1. You complain that Israeli Jews are fighting for democracy for themselves, but aren't fighting for the Palestinians. Let me ask you this: When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews? From where I'm sitting, all I've seen Palestine do is spew hate, murder, and terrorize Israeli Jews.
2. If Palestinians were out in the streets protesting and fighting, it wouldn't be for democracy. Palestinians have lived under Abbas' dictatorial rule for decades and we've never seen a hint of protest. Democracy is not a value in Palestine. Palestinians go out on the streets to attack Israelis and protest Jewish rights. If Palestine valued democracy, it would be one.
"When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise?" is like asking when did Black people in South Africa during the decades of apartheid ever do anything to help the whites who were killing and oppressing them. The Palestinian people are not under the slightest moral obligation to help their oppressors.
Palestinians are longing for democracy. Israel is not and has never been anything like a democracy. If Israeli Zionists valued democracy, Israel would be one. Just because the Palestinian leadership, most of whom are approved by Zionist Israel, is anti-democratic just like Zionists does not mean the Palestinian people hate democracy.
Fantastic. Palestinians are not under the slightest moral obligation to help Israelis, because Israelis are "killing them", and thus Israelis are not under the slightest moral obligation to help Palestinians, because Palestinians are "killing" them. We agree.
James, Palestinians are not longing for democracy. They're longing for dead Jews and a "free Palestine from the river to the sea." We all know what gets Palestinians out in crowds on the streets: celebrating dead Jews.
If Palestinians want democracy, show me one pro-democracy protest in Gaza or Ramallah. Not anti-Israel, not anti-occupation, pro-democracy. Link me up, James. Prove me wrong.
Reverse the Jew/Palestinian in your comment and it would be true. Sadly, it's the Zionists who are slaughtering the Palestinians. It's sad that you have learned nothing at all from all the time you have wasted on Mr Beinart's site. Don't reply.
And do you think illegal settlers aren’t celebrating with fireworks and candy every time they bulldoze a Palestinian community or kill many Palestinians? These are the minority on both sides, and they are both minorities of frankly evil and disgusting people.
"When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews?"
You're right that they don't. But one can believe that Jews and Palestinians should support one another and not violate each others' rights without holding one to a higher standard than the other. You also need to consider that Palestinians are in the subordinate position here, and one's attitude toward one's oppressors is different from one's attitude toward those who are in a weaker position than one.
Palestinians generally don't value democracy, but that doesn't mean Israeli Jews shouldn't. One should not aim to resemble those who are worse than one. Your goal should not be to be like the Palestinians as much as possible.
Thank you. You’ve summarized so clearly what Palestinian writers have expressed and many of us (Diaspora Jews) are feeling -- “I think it’s almost worse, more painful to see the lengths that Israeli Jews are willing to go to fight for democracy for themselves given that most of them, and most diaspora Jews, are so profoundly oblivious or dismissive or even hostile to the idea that Palestinians should also have democracy themselves.”
You also added a re-framing that may perhaps be persuasive to those Jews in Israel and in Galut who have stubbornly, cruelly, disappointingly refused to recognize Palestinian humanity and based upon that recognition radically reshape the Israeli State; “Palestinians are every bit as talented, every bit as remarkable as they [Israeli Jews who are protesting] are, as we are, and to realize that what they can achieve on their own is nothing compared to what their society can achieve if it’s a truly shared and fully equal society with historical justice for Palestinians as well.” I’m afraid, however, that even this reframing that would create a single truly democratic supernation, based on a “win-win hopefulness,” would be likely to benefit Jewish citizens of Israel/Palestine and Jewish potential citizens, far more than Palestinians, along the lines of Derrick Bell’s Interest Convergence Theory.
Completely untrue. Israel has done as much as it can to help support Palestinian governmental institutions and economy. Hard to do while that same governmental institution is working night and day to kill Jews, but Israel's trying its best.
The primary purpose of the "reform" is to support the occupation and Jewish superiority. The new right in Israel will have four years to replan that same "reform" but in stages. The occupation corrupts the soul and that soul will never have a real democracy.
Palestinians are fighting for domination of the land. Their ideology makes democracy impossible. How can there be equality between an indigenous people who belong to the land and a foreign non-people who are occupying it. Black Americans accepted white Americans as American. Black South Africans accepted white South Africans as South Africans. Palestinians do not accept Jews as Palestinian.
“Palestinians don’t accept Jews as Palestinian” - that’s because more and more Jews swept in full of hubris and chauvenism and set upon destroying the Palestinian society and ways. Without the supremacist attitude, Jews would have (as they had pre-1948) been accepted by the Palestinian Arabs.
You live in the same realm of fantasy as Rabbi Beinart.
Hubris, chauvinism and capitalization of the myth of being the "chosen people" are what buttresses the injustices against the Palestinians. The myth has been adopted by America and now both these two white nations see themselves as special, and will be do anything, to prove that, including the murder of the indigenous people. Torah is clear that Yahweh gave instructions on how to clear the "holy land" of the Gentiles. Nothing much will change until people give up these delusions.
It is a right to have a safe place to live. It was clear to Jews after the Holocaust that Europe could no longer provide refuge and that Jewish state was needed. And while its true that the creation and maintenance of this state has come at a cost, you mustn't lose sight of the humanity that drove Israel's creation.
To your antisemitic point about 'the chosen people', its clear that you're not as smart nor as well read as you think you are. The delusion of chosen-ness is universal. Every people believes that the cosmic destiny of the universe hinges upon them. Look at what Hamas wrote in their refurbished (2017) charter.
"Palestine is the spirit of the Ummah and its central cause; it is the SOUL OF HUMANITY and its living conscience."
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
Palestinians suffer from the same delusions of grandeur.
Every human being has a right to a safe place to live. The Palestinians had nothing to do with Holocaust.Antisemitism mainly Christian is to blame, as is Germany. Zionists had been promised land in other places like East Africa but they rebuffed. We know why? Torah says otherwise.
Why do these innocent Palestinians have to suffer? Keep in mind that the land was being given out by British colonists. At the time, scramble for land by these colonists was ongoing. Palestine is still under occupation while other colonists have long been driven out in colonial countries.
Let me start by saying that the Jews are not chosen. They are not. They are not special. Many do not acknowledge Jew's god, and so Yahweh's commands are nonsense to many. Chosen may be universal but Jew's is taken to be especial such that all in the world are to acknowledge their choseness. Torah is clear that the Jews are superior to the Gentiles. Torah reports that Yahweh, the divine landlord, gave Israel to his chosen people, adding that they are to clear the land of Gentiles lest "they become thorns on their flesh." The fact that Jews are taken to be special is strengthened by the fact that Christians, white Christians esp in USA, have also fallen for this delusion despite their scripture saying otherwise. Jews are not chosen. No one is chosen by any god. We are all EQUAL. This is not antisemitic. It's not antisemitic to diabuse this notion. It's humanism.
Repeating what was said ALL HUMAN BEINGS DESERVE A SAFE PLACE TO LIVE. So should every persecuted minority get to have their own country and ethnically cleanse whoever is in their way? NO
A majority of the Israeli public will hopefully one day realize that they are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy in the name of “security”: by occupying and oppressing the Palestinians and stripping them of most basic rights in an apartheid state in the name of security, they are making Israeli security worse and worse.
It’s complete fear-mongerimg propaganda driven by right wing Israeli politicians and pundits that Palestinians as a whole want Jews out of Palestine. The vast majority want to simply co-exist in peace and want a decent life with economic opportunities. But Israel and the PA corrupt leaders won’t let happen.
I went to a demo yesterday by Toronto Jews demanding democracy, wearing a sign that says JEWS AGAINST ISRAEL'S CRIMES. I asked a couple of them whether they'd want to live in Canada if it were not a state of all its citizens. I'm not sure they knew what I was talking about.
People don't have to be talented or remarkable or both to deserve basic human rights.
A state of all its citizens, you mean like Palestine, Jordan, Egypt, and the rest of the Arab League?
So you don't support the Abraham Accords which - against the wishes of the Palestinians and the citizens of those countries - ally the apartheid Israeli state with the undemocratic Arab governments?
Undemocratic? What do you mean, undemocratic? I thought only Israel was so evil and so terrible that it's an ethnic-based nation state. Are you say multiple Arab governments are also ethnic-based nation states?? Where's the anti-Zionist movement for all of them?
Undemocratic? As in apartheid Israel. You seem to have a great deal of time, Winters, to hang around on this site spouting your lies. We're not listening.
Then stop responding to me, James. I know it's inconvenient for you guys, but Israel as a Jewish state is not exceptional, it's quite common for countries to be ethnic-based nation states.
Please list such democracies where 25% of their populations are NOT the ruling ethnicity. Please don’t list places like Japan etc, it’s not even a comparison, they are basically 98-99% Japanese, not 75%. This is just more of your lazy whataboutism to deflect from the fact that Israel needs to do much better
More lazy whataboutism to deflect from the actual argument. Who gives a shit about Jordan, Egypt, etc we aren’t talking about them, we are talking about Israel
Imagine, imagine, imagine...you say if Israel, kumbaya, accepted Palestinians as equals. How about when Palestinians accept Israel??
These are the people who commemorate terrorists who murder innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in nightclubs, and walking down the street. Who pay pensions to the families of suicide bombers to incentivize others to do the same. Who teach their children to hate Jews using the language Nazis used.
Imagine if the Palestinians accepted Israel, accepted living in their own country in peace next to Israel, and accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...
No, this is nonsense (to avoid the 8 letter word that starts with a "b"). The vast majority of Palestinians want to be able to live their lives decently and not in a police state, which, sadly, is what the state of Israel is for the great majority of them; about one Palestinian --unarmed, civilian -- is killed by the IDF or the police per day. The great majority of Palestinians are not calling for the blood of Jews, That is false, as you must know, but must be the only way you can rationalise what is being done to the Palestinians. Of course, there are some Palestinians who do seek vengeance and blood just as their are many Jewish Israelis who do (of Palestinians), e.g. Smotrich and Ben-Gvir. Please take off your blinders and try to see this situation in its full complexity and with humanity.
Here’s the difference in the statistics that the media rarely explains: the Palestinians being killed are terrorists. Israeli security forces put themselves in danger trying to arrest these murderers. Palestinians target civilians unabashedly, intentionally. Understand???
One person’s terrorist is another person’s freedom fighter. Stop making the “terrorists” fight for their freedoms, and there will be no more “terrorists”. Come on Israel! Shock the world. Dismantle the checkpoints, overnight, give the Arabs full rights, and watch them lay down their arms immediately. It’s all about the chauvenism of Jews, their supremacist attitude. That is what the resistance is all about.
Ha! Is that a joke? You don’t need to experiment with what that might look like. Go to the time before checkpoints, security forces working with the PA to root out terrorists, and the security fence along the border. Do you member what that looked like? Suicide bombers blowing up buses, nightclubs, and more.
No, the onus is not on Israel to change. It is on the Palestinians. They are the ones who reject Israel and their corrupt leaders are responsible for how their citizens live.
The escalating radicalization of Palestinian young men, such as the Lion’s Den, would not be happening if Israel treated the Palestinians with more dignity. Israeli society has been indoctrinated by hasbara not to do that. Frans de Waal did research with bonobos and chimpanzes and found that nothing evokes rage more than the perception or fact of UNFAIRNESS. Jews came to Palestine with the express purpose of not being fair to the Arabs there. The creation of Israel as a home for the Jews is the evidence.
False. The Arabs living in Israel in 1948 could stay, but many were duped by surrounding Arab countries to leave during the war and then return after the Jews lost. But the war didn’t turn out that way, and these Arabs were not allowed to return to victorious Israel (nor go to the surrounding Arab countries either except for Jordan.) Meanwhile, many Arabs stayed. Do you know what they are called today? Israeli citizens. And when asked whether they would want to become Palestinian citizens should a state emerge, over 95% said no, they’d rather stay Israeli.
As for the Palestinians, they will be treated with respect when they behave like they deserve respect. That means no terror attacks against Israelis, no teaching their children antisemitism and hatred of Israel, etc.
Haha, I’m not suggesting that Arabs are apes! Rather I spurn religion and believe that all humans are related to and share similarities with apes. Incidentally, dog researchers have found that fairness plays a big role in dog psychology as well. Maybe it’s universal for all creatures.
Murderers? They are freedom fighters and want their land back just like the Ukrainians. We all know what the Jews want. We have read Torah. They want to clear the "holy land " of Gentiles as commanded by Yahweh. The instructions on how to do this are clear and what they are doing and have been doing for decades is not without precedent. Joshua and others did it with the help of some god.
The vast majority of Palestinians want Israeli Jews dead. - "71% support the Palestinian armed attack on two Israeli settlers in Huwara. " - https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/938
"accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...""
You imagine how the Palestinians feel after losing their homes. They want to return to their homes. Why not right of return to Israel? Why do the Jews want to seclude themselves from others in a land stolen from others? How about we explore a right of return to Germany for the Jews? In fact Jews have a right of return to Germany and many are moving back in droves.
Dear Richard Jaffee and all deluded Jews, "You are not a chosen people, you are not special, other people do not believe in your god and are under no obligation to follow your god's commands. You share the world with others, who are your equal. Give up the delusions and have the Palestinians have their land. You can move back to Germany or join your brothers and sisters in USA.
You’re a moron. Not even worth responding to you.
Hit a nerve, ha? Give up the delusions and make this world a better place for the sake of everyone. Jews' sob story no longer hold any water; Palestinians are stuck in their land called Israel and Palestine while the Jews can move anyone around the world. Go back to Germany or USA. My compassion's with the disfranchised Palestinians.
I'm familiar with some of those organizations, Tamar. In fact, I've spoken to several of them. I invited Mairav and Orly for Friday precisely because they have been on the ground over the last few days and weeks. I've heard comments like yours from a few people recently--but, notably, not from any Palestinians.
Thanks for replying. When will you invite interview subjects active in the organizations you've spoken with— whether Jewish or Palestinian? If you're looking for comments from Palestinians, a few thoughts and suggestions. Do Palestinians subscribe to your Substack site page (as best as you can tell which can be impossible by name only)? If so, have you reached out to them for comments? Do you have Palestinian friends wherever they live who might subscribe to your site/page and comment on this and other posts? Now, I'm adding, Have you turned to Mairav and Orly for their Palestinian contacts as potential commenters (and interview subjects)? Regards from Tel Aviv
Today's message shows that you've not been "on the ground" in Israel in a long time. Your narrative (screed?) needs revisiting and revising in real time. Most unfortunate is your ignoring any of the thousands of Jewish Israelis actively seeking common ground with our Muslim neighbors both inside the Green Line and beyond. I encourage you to invite Israeli Jewish guests including "Physicians for Human Rights staff and volunteers, "Road to Recovery" drivers and coordinators, "The Parents Circle-Families Forum" participants and co-coordinators, "Rabbis for Human Rights" partners in harvesting olives, and "Combatants for Peace" activists now preparing to attend live or remote the 18th Annual Joint [Israel] Memorial Day Ceremony followed by the Joint Nakba Ceremony that informs about and honors the Palestinian experience.
we send them out the wednesday after Friday's call
Would you consider making them free after some time has passed? E.g. after 6 months the video becomes available to the general public?
thank you, Brian. Chag Sameach to you and you wonderful family.
great suggestion. do you know him?
on the last point you may well be right. the irony is that while many Jews think legal equality would lead to Jews being dominated or killed, many Palestinian intellectuals--having watched post-apartheid South Africa--fear that without decolonization, conditions on the ground might not fundamentally change
At this point you’ll have to excuse me if I don’t care very much what Palestinian intellectuals say; given how much of them spend their time justifying crimes against humanity. But if they really care so much about decolonization, they are welcome to go back to Yemen and Riyadh.
Bearing in mind that apartheid Israel is an ongoing crime of colonisation, murder, incarceration and generally working hard to make the lives of Palestinian people as hard and miserable as possible... it makes it hard for me to accept your good faith.
And you think anyone believes your comments are good faith? LOL.
Provide examples of Palestinian crimes against humanity, please. It might help your credibility were you to remove your mask of anonymity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover_massacre
Happy anniversary.
And you could find hundreds or more of examples of Israeli state sanctioned war crimes and crimes against humanity.
thank you
You're welcome!
‘Why don’t the Ukrainians just protest for democracy for all Ukrainians and all Russians? One man one vote in Russia-Ukraine? Why are they using violence to protect an ethnostate that is not a state for all citizens?”
And yes, Beinart, I’m going to keep bringing up this point until you actually respond to it with something coherent and not just “Ukraine has a Jewish President lol.”
The answer is that Palestine has given the Israelis no reason to think they will treat the Israelis well if given a vote. In fact, there’s ever reason to think the Palestinians would take advantage of the situation to kill more Israelis and dance on their graves. Why? Because that’s what they are doing RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
The Israeli left is dead because Palestine stabbed it, blew it up, shot it, etc etc. Palestine has no one to blame but themselves.
How to win internet debates 101:
“I’m going keep bringing up the same banal points that the writer has already addressed umpteen times until he finally just stops responding. “
Then I’ll use his non-response going-forward as a concession to all of my points.”
Owned!
I didn’t say that, you’re responding to a product of your own deranged imagination.
Explain to me why the Ukrainians have the right to their own state and the right to defend it with force but Israelis don’t.
https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/does-israel-have-a-right-to-exist-61a
Would you agree then that Ukraine is in fact a Ukrainian supremacist state with no right to remain Ukrainian supremacist? And that the best solution to their conflict with Russia is a single state, one man one vote, with everyone living together in equality?
Answer carefully now, Paul.
Suppose a NATO-backed Ukraine successfully repels Russian forces in all territory in the internationally recognized pre-2014 borders and the Kyiv government moves to reassert sovereignty over that territory.
Now suppose further that, in retaliation, all pro-Russia Ukrainians from those territories were demoted to second-class citizenship or to no citizenship at all in the aftermath. They lost all recourse to petition the Kyiv government to address their needs and security. Western and diaspora Ukrainians were encouraged to move to the Donbas and subsidized to bulldoze the homes of the inhabitants and assert ownership of the land. The Ukrainian military could declare firing zones, no matter how specious and fraudulent, anywhere east of the Dnipro River and force evacuations.
Meanwhile all of Russia and the international community would condemn it (those anti-Ukrainian bigots!)
When all that happens, it might be worth taking your analogy seriously.
You’re changing the subject. This isn’t about the occupation. Read the article you linked to. The problem to Beinart and those like him is Jews having their own state. Try again.
This is a controversy involving Jewish citizens of Israel. They could not care about the Palestinians and your unending concern about their welfare means nothing. Please get off your soapbox !
Hello moron - 25% of Israeli citizens in the state of Israel are non-Jews - 21% of which are Arab, the rest Druze, Christian, etc. This does not include anyone in the OPT.
So 1 out of 4 citizens in Israel are explicitly and systematically discriminated against via Knesset laws and govt institutional practices when it comes to land, infrastructure, planning, education, healthcare, and industry resources and much more.
This judicial reform does affect these 25% of Israel citizens that do not have full citizenship or equal rights and the Supreme Court could make things worse for them because unfortunately none of the Basic Laws have a part that enshrines equality for all regardless of race, sex, religion, ethnicity, etc. Israel doesn’t have that and there for Supreme Court rulings with right wing judges could get even worse for the 25% ethnic minority population.
I’m tired of ignorant pro-Israeli commenters who thinks all citizens of Israel have equal rights… that is total bullshit they do not and never did. There is a two-class society in Israel where Jews are lavished with every resource first and little proportionally goes to non-Jews. And this doesn’t even cover the societal racism and discrimination non-Jews experience in public and at the workplace.
With all due respect Professor Beinart Palestinians talking wistfully about Democracy is more than a little silly. Its not something they have ever practiced in their home. Period end of story.
Neither did the Jews
Mr. Shavit I agree with part of your other comment namely "the occupation corrupts the soul". That said it is preposterous to suggest that Israel not Israel-Palestine as Professor Beinart aspires, is not a Democratic Country. It has a Knesset whose structure you are no doubt well aware of, and the Palestinian/ Arab citizens of Israel or as we would say behind the Green Line can and do have rights and are well represented in the Knesset. They were the King makers of the prior government too bad they decided to break it. Is there discrimination? Absolutely. There is discrimination in many Democratic countries. The US is a prime example.
While I am totally opposed to Netanyahu and his regime, as no doubt almost everyone on this site, I am very heartened by the number and nonviolent style of Israel's protestors that have brought at least for now a temporary halt to the "reforms". Such a protest in most other parts of the Western world would no doubt have had significant casualties by now. Even Tel Aviv's police chief participated in the protest.
What I meant by writing that it is silly for Palestinians to complain about Democracy, is the fact that it has never been practiced among them. In Gaza Hamas threw the opposition off the rooftop, in areas where the PA was in charge, they decided not to have elections for fear Hamas would win (which of course they would). There is no democratic tradition there. (there is no Muslim majority country anywhere that practices Democracy). That is part of the folly of Professor Beinart's solution approach.
There is too much to talk about Israel’s democracy; I know how much democracy the Israeli Arabs have, maybe more than some of our neighbors but not even close to what Jews have, and let’s not start to talk about an occupation that Israel maintain for over 50 years that will destroy our country. I was in the army from 1964-67 and have a good memory.
I would say there is not enough talk about Israel's Democracy.
Since you were in the army you would know very well two things, and the first better than me, that war is ugly! People do things that otherwise they would never do. The second that between 1967 and 1977 there were no settlements as Israel waited for negotiations to return the West Bank. No one came from the Palestinians and you may recall the 3 Nos "No negotiations, No recognition, and No peace".
Unfortunately, in the post 67 "Miracle" years the Orthodox communities grew and pressed for settlement of "Judea and Samaria". I was there when I saw the Likud unfortunately take over and open the floodgates to many Americans. But the reality was that the Palestinians foolishly still depended on the Arab league and mostly acted up by attacking Jews wherever they could (Munich). They had no program other than a replacement of the Jews program (still the majority view among many.) Even on this site in a few brief conversations I had with Palestinians it has been we want our state and we want a return to Israel.
Thanks for keeping the conversation very civilized. From 1967 to 1977, a lot happened in Israel, and there is much debate about the facts and who did and said what; the settlement started much earlier than you site, but we do not need to argue about that. Many critical leaders in Israel spoke about what would happen if, Sorry to say, it got much worse. The final words must be that no country can maintain occupation by force of 50% of the people and remain peaceful and democratic.
Mr. Shavit, I decided to look into the period 1967-1977 and yes you are right there were settlements, but they were in the main small semi-military on the Jordan river designed to implement the then Israeli Allon Plan as a defensive shield. The other ones were a recreation of the Gush Etzion settlements that were in place prior to the creation of the State of Israel.
As you may recall Kfar Etzion in the Gush area was put under siege during the war in 1947 and the then occupants were slaughtered by local Palestinian/Arab villagers. The other 3 nearby communities surrendered to the Arab Legion the next day and their towns were plundered and then burned down. You know the kind of thing that supposedly only the Jews did.
So these communities were reestablished for historical symbolism unlike the others in teh Jordan valley, mostly a deserted area, that were established for security reasons. Other than Maale Adumim (40,000) also in the Gush Etzion sector, and part of which is on the annexed Jerusalem land, the total population even today of these communities is under 30,000 hardly a bar to a peaceful settlement.
Wars have consequences for both sides.
My apologies Mr. Shavit, and to others on this site. You are correct there were a few settlements in the West Bank starting in 1968 I misread it.
It is also fair to say the Labor government would have preferred to negotiate an exit from the West Bank minus East Jerusalem.
Not just Palestinians, but Muslims and especially Arab Muslims. I keep making this point (I, a person living in a Muslim majority society) and it keeps getting ignored by Peter Beinart and others.
Two points, Peter.
1. You complain that Israeli Jews are fighting for democracy for themselves, but aren't fighting for the Palestinians. Let me ask you this: When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews? From where I'm sitting, all I've seen Palestine do is spew hate, murder, and terrorize Israeli Jews.
2. If Palestinians were out in the streets protesting and fighting, it wouldn't be for democracy. Palestinians have lived under Abbas' dictatorial rule for decades and we've never seen a hint of protest. Democracy is not a value in Palestine. Palestinians go out on the streets to attack Israelis and protest Jewish rights. If Palestine valued democracy, it would be one.
"When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise?" is like asking when did Black people in South Africa during the decades of apartheid ever do anything to help the whites who were killing and oppressing them. The Palestinian people are not under the slightest moral obligation to help their oppressors.
Palestinians are longing for democracy. Israel is not and has never been anything like a democracy. If Israeli Zionists valued democracy, Israel would be one. Just because the Palestinian leadership, most of whom are approved by Zionist Israel, is anti-democratic just like Zionists does not mean the Palestinian people hate democracy.
Fantastic. Palestinians are not under the slightest moral obligation to help Israelis, because Israelis are "killing them", and thus Israelis are not under the slightest moral obligation to help Palestinians, because Palestinians are "killing" them. We agree.
James, Palestinians are not longing for democracy. They're longing for dead Jews and a "free Palestine from the river to the sea." We all know what gets Palestinians out in crowds on the streets: celebrating dead Jews.
If Palestinians want democracy, show me one pro-democracy protest in Gaza or Ramallah. Not anti-Israel, not anti-occupation, pro-democracy. Link me up, James. Prove me wrong.
Reverse the Jew/Palestinian in your comment and it would be true. Sadly, it's the Zionists who are slaughtering the Palestinians. It's sad that you have learned nothing at all from all the time you have wasted on Mr Beinart's site. Don't reply.
You don't have a clue what's true and what isn't, James. Read and weep.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinians-celebrate-jerusalem-synagogue-massacre-with-fireworks-sweets/
Where's my link to a pro-democracy protest?
And do you think illegal settlers aren’t celebrating with fireworks and candy every time they bulldoze a Palestinian community or kill many Palestinians? These are the minority on both sides, and they are both minorities of frankly evil and disgusting people.
"When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews?"
You're right that they don't. But one can believe that Jews and Palestinians should support one another and not violate each others' rights without holding one to a higher standard than the other. You also need to consider that Palestinians are in the subordinate position here, and one's attitude toward one's oppressors is different from one's attitude toward those who are in a weaker position than one.
Palestinians generally don't value democracy, but that doesn't mean Israeli Jews shouldn't. One should not aim to resemble those who are worse than one. Your goal should not be to be like the Palestinians as much as possible.
Thank you. You’ve summarized so clearly what Palestinian writers have expressed and many of us (Diaspora Jews) are feeling -- “I think it’s almost worse, more painful to see the lengths that Israeli Jews are willing to go to fight for democracy for themselves given that most of them, and most diaspora Jews, are so profoundly oblivious or dismissive or even hostile to the idea that Palestinians should also have democracy themselves.”
You also added a re-framing that may perhaps be persuasive to those Jews in Israel and in Galut who have stubbornly, cruelly, disappointingly refused to recognize Palestinian humanity and based upon that recognition radically reshape the Israeli State; “Palestinians are every bit as talented, every bit as remarkable as they [Israeli Jews who are protesting] are, as we are, and to realize that what they can achieve on their own is nothing compared to what their society can achieve if it’s a truly shared and fully equal society with historical justice for Palestinians as well.” I’m afraid, however, that even this reframing that would create a single truly democratic supernation, based on a “win-win hopefulness,” would be likely to benefit Jewish citizens of Israel/Palestine and Jewish potential citizens, far more than Palestinians, along the lines of Derrick Bell’s Interest Convergence Theory.
Since Palestinians are just as talented and remarkable as Israeli Jews, how about they go build their own remarkable state and leave Jews alone?
Because the Israeli establishment has done every possible step to avoid the Palestinian state.
Completely untrue. Israel has done as much as it can to help support Palestinian governmental institutions and economy. Hard to do while that same governmental institution is working night and day to kill Jews, but Israel's trying its best.