Our call this week, for paid subscribers, will be at its regular time, Friday at Noon ET. Given the speed at which things are changing, I have no idea where Israeli politics will be by this Friday. Regardless, we’ll be joined by two of the smartest people I know to discuss the current protests and whether they could contain the seeds of a movement against not just the judicial overhaul but against occupation and apartheid. Our first guest will be Orly Noy, the
The primary purpose of the "reform" is to support the occupation and Jewish superiority. The new right in Israel will have four years to replan that same "reform" but in stages. The occupation corrupts the soul and that soul will never have a real democracy.
Palestinians are fighting for domination of the land. Their ideology makes democracy impossible. How can there be equality between an indigenous people who belong to the land and a foreign non-people who are occupying it. Black Americans accepted white Americans as American. Black South Africans accepted white South Africans as South Africans. Palestinians do not accept Jews as Palestinian.
I went to a demo yesterday by Toronto Jews demanding democracy, wearing a sign that says JEWS AGAINST ISRAEL'S CRIMES. I asked a couple of them whether they'd want to live in Canada if it were not a state of all its citizens. I'm not sure they knew what I was talking about.
People don't have to be talented or remarkable or both to deserve basic human rights.
Imagine, imagine, imagine...you say if Israel, kumbaya, accepted Palestinians as equals. How about when Palestinians accept Israel??
These are the people who commemorate terrorists who murder innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in nightclubs, and walking down the street. Who pay pensions to the families of suicide bombers to incentivize others to do the same. Who teach their children to hate Jews using the language Nazis used.
Imagine if the Palestinians accepted Israel, accepted living in their own country in peace next to Israel, and accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...
I'm familiar with some of those organizations, Tamar. In fact, I've spoken to several of them. I invited Mairav and Orly for Friday precisely because they have been on the ground over the last few days and weeks. I've heard comments like yours from a few people recently--but, notably, not from any Palestinians.
Today's message shows that you've not been "on the ground" in Israel in a long time. Your narrative (screed?) needs revisiting and revising in real time. Most unfortunate is your ignoring any of the thousands of Jewish Israelis actively seeking common ground with our Muslim neighbors both inside the Green Line and beyond. I encourage you to invite Israeli Jewish guests including "Physicians for Human Rights staff and volunteers, "Road to Recovery" drivers and coordinators, "The Parents Circle-Families Forum" participants and co-coordinators, "Rabbis for Human Rights" partners in harvesting olives, and "Combatants for Peace" activists now preparing to attend live or remote the 18th Annual Joint [Israel] Memorial Day Ceremony followed by the Joint Nakba Ceremony that informs about and honors the Palestinian experience.
on the last point you may well be right. the irony is that while many Jews think legal equality would lead to Jews being dominated or killed, many Palestinian intellectuals--having watched post-apartheid South Africa--fear that without decolonization, conditions on the ground might not fundamentally change
‘Why don’t the Ukrainians just protest for democracy for all Ukrainians and all Russians? One man one vote in Russia-Ukraine? Why are they using violence to protect an ethnostate that is not a state for all citizens?”
And yes, Beinart, I’m going to keep bringing up this point until you actually respond to it with something coherent and not just “Ukraine has a Jewish President lol.”
The answer is that Palestine has given the Israelis no reason to think they will treat the Israelis well if given a vote. In fact, there’s ever reason to think the Palestinians would take advantage of the situation to kill more Israelis and dance on their graves. Why? Because that’s what they are doing RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
The Israeli left is dead because Palestine stabbed it, blew it up, shot it, etc etc. Palestine has no one to blame but themselves.
This is a controversy involving Jewish citizens of Israel. They could not care about the Palestinians and your unending concern about their welfare means nothing. Please get off your soapbox !
With all due respect Professor Beinart Palestinians talking wistfully about Democracy is more than a little silly. Its not something they have ever practiced in their home. Period end of story.
1. You complain that Israeli Jews are fighting for democracy for themselves, but aren't fighting for the Palestinians. Let me ask you this: When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews? From where I'm sitting, all I've seen Palestine do is spew hate, murder, and terrorize Israeli Jews.
2. If Palestinians were out in the streets protesting and fighting, it wouldn't be for democracy. Palestinians have lived under Abbas' dictatorial rule for decades and we've never seen a hint of protest. Democracy is not a value in Palestine. Palestinians go out on the streets to attack Israelis and protest Jewish rights. If Palestine valued democracy, it would be one.
Thank you. You’ve summarized so clearly what Palestinian writers have expressed and many of us (Diaspora Jews) are feeling -- “I think it’s almost worse, more painful to see the lengths that Israeli Jews are willing to go to fight for democracy for themselves given that most of them, and most diaspora Jews, are so profoundly oblivious or dismissive or even hostile to the idea that Palestinians should also have democracy themselves.”
You also added a re-framing that may perhaps be persuasive to those Jews in Israel and in Galut who have stubbornly, cruelly, disappointingly refused to recognize Palestinian humanity and based upon that recognition radically reshape the Israeli State; “Palestinians are every bit as talented, every bit as remarkable as they [Israeli Jews who are protesting] are, as we are, and to realize that what they can achieve on their own is nothing compared to what their society can achieve if it’s a truly shared and fully equal society with historical justice for Palestinians as well.” I’m afraid, however, that even this reframing that would create a single truly democratic supernation, based on a “win-win hopefulness,” would be likely to benefit Jewish citizens of Israel/Palestine and Jewish potential citizens, far more than Palestinians, along the lines of Derrick Bell’s Interest Convergence Theory.
The primary purpose of the "reform" is to support the occupation and Jewish superiority. The new right in Israel will have four years to replan that same "reform" but in stages. The occupation corrupts the soul and that soul will never have a real democracy.
Palestinians are fighting for domination of the land. Their ideology makes democracy impossible. How can there be equality between an indigenous people who belong to the land and a foreign non-people who are occupying it. Black Americans accepted white Americans as American. Black South Africans accepted white South Africans as South Africans. Palestinians do not accept Jews as Palestinian.
I went to a demo yesterday by Toronto Jews demanding democracy, wearing a sign that says JEWS AGAINST ISRAEL'S CRIMES. I asked a couple of them whether they'd want to live in Canada if it were not a state of all its citizens. I'm not sure they knew what I was talking about.
People don't have to be talented or remarkable or both to deserve basic human rights.
Imagine, imagine, imagine...you say if Israel, kumbaya, accepted Palestinians as equals. How about when Palestinians accept Israel??
These are the people who commemorate terrorists who murder innocent civilians on busses, in restaurants, in nightclubs, and walking down the street. Who pay pensions to the families of suicide bombers to incentivize others to do the same. Who teach their children to hate Jews using the language Nazis used.
Imagine if the Palestinians accepted Israel, accepted living in their own country in peace next to Israel, and accepted a “right of return” to this new Palestinian nation, not to Israel. Imagine, imagine, imagine...
I'm familiar with some of those organizations, Tamar. In fact, I've spoken to several of them. I invited Mairav and Orly for Friday precisely because they have been on the ground over the last few days and weeks. I've heard comments like yours from a few people recently--but, notably, not from any Palestinians.
Today's message shows that you've not been "on the ground" in Israel in a long time. Your narrative (screed?) needs revisiting and revising in real time. Most unfortunate is your ignoring any of the thousands of Jewish Israelis actively seeking common ground with our Muslim neighbors both inside the Green Line and beyond. I encourage you to invite Israeli Jewish guests including "Physicians for Human Rights staff and volunteers, "Road to Recovery" drivers and coordinators, "The Parents Circle-Families Forum" participants and co-coordinators, "Rabbis for Human Rights" partners in harvesting olives, and "Combatants for Peace" activists now preparing to attend live or remote the 18th Annual Joint [Israel] Memorial Day Ceremony followed by the Joint Nakba Ceremony that informs about and honors the Palestinian experience.
we send them out the wednesday after Friday's call
thank you, Brian. Chag Sameach to you and you wonderful family.
great suggestion. do you know him?
on the last point you may well be right. the irony is that while many Jews think legal equality would lead to Jews being dominated or killed, many Palestinian intellectuals--having watched post-apartheid South Africa--fear that without decolonization, conditions on the ground might not fundamentally change
thank you
‘Why don’t the Ukrainians just protest for democracy for all Ukrainians and all Russians? One man one vote in Russia-Ukraine? Why are they using violence to protect an ethnostate that is not a state for all citizens?”
And yes, Beinart, I’m going to keep bringing up this point until you actually respond to it with something coherent and not just “Ukraine has a Jewish President lol.”
The answer is that Palestine has given the Israelis no reason to think they will treat the Israelis well if given a vote. In fact, there’s ever reason to think the Palestinians would take advantage of the situation to kill more Israelis and dance on their graves. Why? Because that’s what they are doing RIGHT FUCKING NOW.
The Israeli left is dead because Palestine stabbed it, blew it up, shot it, etc etc. Palestine has no one to blame but themselves.
This is a controversy involving Jewish citizens of Israel. They could not care about the Palestinians and your unending concern about their welfare means nothing. Please get off your soapbox !
With all due respect Professor Beinart Palestinians talking wistfully about Democracy is more than a little silly. Its not something they have ever practiced in their home. Period end of story.
Two points, Peter.
1. You complain that Israeli Jews are fighting for democracy for themselves, but aren't fighting for the Palestinians. Let me ask you this: When have the Palestinians ever done literally anything for Jews, Israeli or otherwise? Surely you're not holding Israeli Jews to a higher standard than Palestinians, right, so when have Palestinians fought for anything that would benefit Jews? From where I'm sitting, all I've seen Palestine do is spew hate, murder, and terrorize Israeli Jews.
2. If Palestinians were out in the streets protesting and fighting, it wouldn't be for democracy. Palestinians have lived under Abbas' dictatorial rule for decades and we've never seen a hint of protest. Democracy is not a value in Palestine. Palestinians go out on the streets to attack Israelis and protest Jewish rights. If Palestine valued democracy, it would be one.
Thank you. You’ve summarized so clearly what Palestinian writers have expressed and many of us (Diaspora Jews) are feeling -- “I think it’s almost worse, more painful to see the lengths that Israeli Jews are willing to go to fight for democracy for themselves given that most of them, and most diaspora Jews, are so profoundly oblivious or dismissive or even hostile to the idea that Palestinians should also have democracy themselves.”
You also added a re-framing that may perhaps be persuasive to those Jews in Israel and in Galut who have stubbornly, cruelly, disappointingly refused to recognize Palestinian humanity and based upon that recognition radically reshape the Israeli State; “Palestinians are every bit as talented, every bit as remarkable as they [Israeli Jews who are protesting] are, as we are, and to realize that what they can achieve on their own is nothing compared to what their society can achieve if it’s a truly shared and fully equal society with historical justice for Palestinians as well.” I’m afraid, however, that even this reframing that would create a single truly democratic supernation, based on a “win-win hopefulness,” would be likely to benefit Jewish citizens of Israel/Palestine and Jewish potential citizens, far more than Palestinians, along the lines of Derrick Bell’s Interest Convergence Theory.