Yes, it's bad when the septuagenarian, disgraced, massively unpopular, twice impeached, historically reviled former President spreads anti-Semitic tropes. It's also bad when the young, celebrated, popular, Rolling Stone lionized, "anti-racist," "progressive," "human rights loving" Ilhan Omar says it. It is also bad when Mondoweiss, Elect…
Yes, it's bad when the septuagenarian, disgraced, massively unpopular, twice impeached, historically reviled former President spreads anti-Semitic tropes. It's also bad when the young, celebrated, popular, Rolling Stone lionized, "anti-racist," "progressive," "human rights loving" Ilhan Omar says it. It is also bad when Mondoweiss, Electronic Intifada, mainstream Palestinian and Arab politicians, and anti-Zionists say it. Not that I would expect to hear such condemnations from Peter Beinart directed at that last group.
I think it's interesting that leftists like Beinart always insist on holding Israel to a higher standard than its fascist neighbors like Palestine because Israel is a Western liberal democracy. Yet they don't understand why others don't want to hold Donald Trump to the same standard as the self-proclaimed anti-racist, anti-hate speech, pro-immigrant, pro-tolerance, pro-diversity members of the Democratic Party. Funny how that works.
"Israel is a Western liberal democracy". None of that is true, is it? Surely you cannot have typed that with a straight face. Josef Avesar in The Times of Israel on 24/3/2020:
"...reasons why Israel is not a Democracy:
Israel does not have a Constitution and is unable to draft one since the concept of a “Jewish State” contradicts democratic principles of pluralism, secularism and equal rights.
Israel does not separate religion and government. It routinely passes religious laws on issues of family, marriage, divorce and immigration to prevent non-Jews from immigrating or to remain in the country in order to give Jews priority.
Israel does not give most of the Palestinians the right to vote. It controls the West Bank and Gaza but does not recognize the Palestinian population there as citizens. The argument that they are not part of Israel does not wash any longer in light of over 50 years occupation and a massive settlement project.
Israel does not separate between the executive and the legislative branch. All of its government ministers including the Prime Ministers are also members of the legislative branch. This dual capacity violates separation of power, a prerequisite of a functioning democracy."
I'd be happy to discuss whether or not Israel is a Western liberal democracy with you, but that is not the subject at hand. Can please let me know if you agree with my point, which is that Peter is just as much of a purveyor of double standards as the American Jewish leaders he criticizes in the column?
Sure; I disagree entirely. It's not a matter of holding Israel to a higher standard; any socialist worthy of the name detests oppression and lack of democracy wherever they are found - such as here in the UK or in apartheid Israel's allied states such as Saudi Arabia or Bahrain. We demand freedom from poverty, racist abuse, police killings and unfair restrictions for everyone, not just as Zionists do for white Jewish people in Israel. The Palestinian Authority is a stooge of apartheid Israel and it does not work in the interests of Palestinian people any more than the Israeli government does. Israel/Palestine needs to be a single, democratic state with full civil, political and human rights for all, not a racist ethno-state as at present.
Again, you're missing the point. This article is about America Jews' response to anti-Semitic tropes disseminated by certain politicians (Trump and Omar). You did read it right?
Yes, I did. You are claiming that it is anti-Semitic to demand that Israel and its Zionist supporters in the USA or elsewhere behave in democratic ways. I don't agree. If you can point to which tropes you believe to be anti-Semitic, we can discuss those; you didn't provide any.
I have never claimed that, and if this is the kind of intellectually dishonest discourse one can expect below Peter's articles, then that speaks volumes about his fanbase.
If you go and read the article and my response to it at the top of this thread, you will find the anti-Semitic trope under discussion is the insinuation that Jews (not "Zionists") control America. Both Trump and Omar have disseminated it. Now do you have anything to say about it, or are you going to try and change the subject again?
AIPAC's influence in the USA is certainly about money. Why else do you imagine it exists? "Israel has been the most significant recipient of U.S. security assistance, with more than $3B allocated annually in recent years. Since FY2001, Israel has received over $63B in security assistance, with over 90% funded by the State Department's Foreign Military Financing program, a grant program that provides money to purchase U.S. armaments. " (Factsheet: US Arms Sales and Security Assistance to Israel, CIP Security Assistance Monitor)
Ms Omar had no reason to apologise for her clear and true statement. Apartheid Israel would be forced to democratise if it were not for this gigantic flow of funds and weapons. So obviously, money is the main focus for the AIPAC lobby group.
Apparently most of the Democratic party, including American Jews, disagree with you. And made their voices heard accordingly. And I notice once again you have failed to back up Peter's accusations that there's an unfair double standard. Good day to you, it is clear nothing more will be gained from further conversation.
It is clear from your statements that you refuse to look at the facts. Thankfully, a large and growing proportion of American Jewish people fundamentally disagree with you.
Oh, OK, so you agree with Donald Trump's and Omar's anti-Semitic statements. Interesting. Mr. Beinart, any thoughts on one of your subscribers spreading anti-Semitism in the comments of your substack?
I made no comment about Mr Trump. I agreed with Ms Omar that AIPAC's work in the USA is mainly about obtaining funds. It is also about ensuring a steady and huge flow of weapons to apartheid Israel so that it can slaughter Palestinian men, women and children and keep Israel solely for white, Jewish people (see https://www.liberationnews.org/israels-long-history-of-anti-black-racism/)
As for your other question:
"So what does Zionism mean today, and how many American Jews reject Zionism? It isn’t an easy question to answer, since Zionism itself is such contested territory. But if we accept the current definition advanced by the state of Israel itself, that Zionism demands a state in which Jews hold a voting majority, then fully twenty percent of American Jews are not Zionists.
We know this because we know that one in five American Jews think it is more important for Israel to be a democracy than for it to remain a Jewish state, thanks to an AJC poll of American Jews are not Zionists). When asked if Israel can be both a Jewish state and a democracy, and if not, which should it be, fully 20% of American Jews answered “No, it should be a democracy.”"
I know. That's why I'm asking you if you agree with his view that Israel controls the US government. The fact that you keep dodging the question is illuminating. Peter, I think we got another one over here!
Yes, it's bad when the septuagenarian, disgraced, massively unpopular, twice impeached, historically reviled former President spreads anti-Semitic tropes. It's also bad when the young, celebrated, popular, Rolling Stone lionized, "anti-racist," "progressive," "human rights loving" Ilhan Omar says it. It is also bad when Mondoweiss, Electronic Intifada, mainstream Palestinian and Arab politicians, and anti-Zionists say it. Not that I would expect to hear such condemnations from Peter Beinart directed at that last group.
I think it's interesting that leftists like Beinart always insist on holding Israel to a higher standard than its fascist neighbors like Palestine because Israel is a Western liberal democracy. Yet they don't understand why others don't want to hold Donald Trump to the same standard as the self-proclaimed anti-racist, anti-hate speech, pro-immigrant, pro-tolerance, pro-diversity members of the Democratic Party. Funny how that works.
"Israel is a Western liberal democracy". None of that is true, is it? Surely you cannot have typed that with a straight face. Josef Avesar in The Times of Israel on 24/3/2020:
"...reasons why Israel is not a Democracy:
Israel does not have a Constitution and is unable to draft one since the concept of a “Jewish State” contradicts democratic principles of pluralism, secularism and equal rights.
Israel does not separate religion and government. It routinely passes religious laws on issues of family, marriage, divorce and immigration to prevent non-Jews from immigrating or to remain in the country in order to give Jews priority.
Israel does not give most of the Palestinians the right to vote. It controls the West Bank and Gaza but does not recognize the Palestinian population there as citizens. The argument that they are not part of Israel does not wash any longer in light of over 50 years occupation and a massive settlement project.
Israel does not separate between the executive and the legislative branch. All of its government ministers including the Prime Ministers are also members of the legislative branch. This dual capacity violates separation of power, a prerequisite of a functioning democracy."
I'd be happy to discuss whether or not Israel is a Western liberal democracy with you, but that is not the subject at hand. Can please let me know if you agree with my point, which is that Peter is just as much of a purveyor of double standards as the American Jewish leaders he criticizes in the column?
Sure; I disagree entirely. It's not a matter of holding Israel to a higher standard; any socialist worthy of the name detests oppression and lack of democracy wherever they are found - such as here in the UK or in apartheid Israel's allied states such as Saudi Arabia or Bahrain. We demand freedom from poverty, racist abuse, police killings and unfair restrictions for everyone, not just as Zionists do for white Jewish people in Israel. The Palestinian Authority is a stooge of apartheid Israel and it does not work in the interests of Palestinian people any more than the Israeli government does. Israel/Palestine needs to be a single, democratic state with full civil, political and human rights for all, not a racist ethno-state as at present.
Again, you're missing the point. This article is about America Jews' response to anti-Semitic tropes disseminated by certain politicians (Trump and Omar). You did read it right?
Yes, I did. You are claiming that it is anti-Semitic to demand that Israel and its Zionist supporters in the USA or elsewhere behave in democratic ways. I don't agree. If you can point to which tropes you believe to be anti-Semitic, we can discuss those; you didn't provide any.
I have never claimed that, and if this is the kind of intellectually dishonest discourse one can expect below Peter's articles, then that speaks volumes about his fanbase.
If you go and read the article and my response to it at the top of this thread, you will find the anti-Semitic trope under discussion is the insinuation that Jews (not "Zionists") control America. Both Trump and Omar have disseminated it. Now do you have anything to say about it, or are you going to try and change the subject again?
AIPAC's influence in the USA is certainly about money. Why else do you imagine it exists? "Israel has been the most significant recipient of U.S. security assistance, with more than $3B allocated annually in recent years. Since FY2001, Israel has received over $63B in security assistance, with over 90% funded by the State Department's Foreign Military Financing program, a grant program that provides money to purchase U.S. armaments. " (Factsheet: US Arms Sales and Security Assistance to Israel, CIP Security Assistance Monitor)
Ms Omar had no reason to apologise for her clear and true statement. Apartheid Israel would be forced to democratise if it were not for this gigantic flow of funds and weapons. So obviously, money is the main focus for the AIPAC lobby group.
Apparently most of the Democratic party, including American Jews, disagree with you. And made their voices heard accordingly. And I notice once again you have failed to back up Peter's accusations that there's an unfair double standard. Good day to you, it is clear nothing more will be gained from further conversation.
It is clear from your statements that you refuse to look at the facts. Thankfully, a large and growing proportion of American Jewish people fundamentally disagree with you.
How large a proportion? Let's see some numbers of American Jews who think Israel is apartheid and a racist ethnostate.
Oh, OK, so you agree with Donald Trump's and Omar's anti-Semitic statements. Interesting. Mr. Beinart, any thoughts on one of your subscribers spreading anti-Semitism in the comments of your substack?
I made no comment about Mr Trump. I agreed with Ms Omar that AIPAC's work in the USA is mainly about obtaining funds. It is also about ensuring a steady and huge flow of weapons to apartheid Israel so that it can slaughter Palestinian men, women and children and keep Israel solely for white, Jewish people (see https://www.liberationnews.org/israels-long-history-of-anti-black-racism/)
As for your other question:
"So what does Zionism mean today, and how many American Jews reject Zionism? It isn’t an easy question to answer, since Zionism itself is such contested territory. But if we accept the current definition advanced by the state of Israel itself, that Zionism demands a state in which Jews hold a voting majority, then fully twenty percent of American Jews are not Zionists.
We know this because we know that one in five American Jews think it is more important for Israel to be a democracy than for it to remain a Jewish state, thanks to an AJC poll of American Jews are not Zionists). When asked if Israel can be both a Jewish state and a democracy, and if not, which should it be, fully 20% of American Jews answered “No, it should be a democracy.”"
https://forward.com/opinion/430535/a-lot-more-jews-are-anti-zionists-than-you-think/
"I made no comment about Mr Trump. "
I know. That's why I'm asking you if you agree with his view that Israel controls the US government. The fact that you keep dodging the question is illuminating. Peter, I think we got another one over here!