Since we're calling out individuals, Peter, do you agree with "United States of War" in their comment below in which they state that a "majority of Jews" are "deluded about their special place in the universe: that they are chosen and can steal land at the expense of other human beings merely because of the color of their skin and religion" and that they are "people with herd mentality" and are "brainwashed"?
Winters, "you are not chosen, you are not more special than the poor, hungry kid in Palestine. And Jews and Israel are not "blessed".
Beinart and all smart Jews know this. Thank you Beinart, Chomsky, Finkenstein and other level headed Jews who are brave enough to call out this delusion.
You want Beinart to lie to you, tell you you're special? You're not. You share the world with other humans who are your equal.
My dear, none of those things are true, and they don't become true just because you say so. The state of Palestine exists, it's a member of the UN. Occupation isn't apartheid and if you think I'm wrong show me where in the Geneva Conventions it says otherwise. Israel has no say on Hamas' tax policies or their throw gay people off rooftops policies. You're just wrong on every level.
Right, this is the reason there’s an expansion in settlements and Palestinians are evicted. Tell me about area C. The current government wants to evict all Palestinians.
Area C IS part of Palestine and if it was only the occupation you may be right, however the colonisation of the Palestinian territories makes that 2 differents civilian population are leaving under differents set of laws, it is apartheid.
What I would really like to hear are Palestinian voices saying they accept Israel’s right to exist, that they would accept having their own peaceful state next to Israel and that the so-called nonsense of “right of return” would be to a new state of Palestine.
Isn't it hypocritical to say that the right of return for Palestinians is nonsense, and yet any Jew anywhere in the world can go live in Israel? Isn't that an example of unequal treatment under the law?
No. Israel has immigration laws as does any other country in the world. As the only Jewish homeland, they have every right to allow Jews to go to their country. The “right of return“ is nonsense because the only refugees are those from 1948. Their descendants have no right to live in Israel. On what basis?? The 20% of the country who are Israeli Arabs are descendants of those who stayed in 1948, and they are Israeli citizens.
Your answer is consistent with the idea that a Jewish state can't be a democratic state. Yes, Israel is a state that makes its own laws, and it can allow Jews to immigrate but not extend the same privilege to other groups...and that is not a democratic policy.
The right of return for those who left in 1948 is based on the principle and the international recognition of the right of those who leave their homes and their land to return to it. What if the US decided that anyone who leaves can't return and the government confiscated their property?!
The modern state of Israel was established in 1948, after the end of British rule in Palestine and the United Nations' decision to partition the land into two states, one for Jews and one for Arabs.
Contrary to popular belief, the land on which Israel was founded was not stolen from the Palestinians. It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I, when it was awarded to the British as a mandate by the League of Nations. Under British rule, Jewish immigration to the area increased significantly as Jews sought refuge from anti-Semitism in Europe and the Middle East.
The partition plan was a proposal presented to both Jews and Arabs for consideration. While the Jewish leadership accepted it, the Arab leadership rejected it. When the British withdrew from Palestine in 1948, neighboring Arab states launched a war against the newly established state of Israel, aiming to prevent its creation and to conquer its territory. The war resulted in Israel's victory and the displacement of many Palestinians who left hoping to return after an Arab victory.
However, those Palestinians and their descendants who remained within the borders of Israel became Israeli citizens. The displacement of Palestinians was not the result of a premeditated plan by Israel, but rather a consequence of the war that they initiated.
Jews have maintained a presence in the land for thousands of years, and the establishment of another Jewish state there has been a long-held aspiration. The establishment of Israel was a fulfillment of this aspiration. Therefore, the land was not stolen from the Palestinians, but rather was part of a larger historical and political process that ultimately led to the creation of the state of Israel.
On the other hand, the descendants of Palestinian refugees are not entitled to a “right of return.” This right only applies to refugees themselves, not to their descendants, according to international law. The right of return is a personal right that applies only to those who were displaced from their homes, and not to subsequent generations.
Moreover, the descendants of refugees have never been displaced themselves, and therefore have no legal or moral claim to the right of return. The right of return is not a matter of inherited rights, but rather a matter of personal rights that are tied to the specific experiences of the individual refugees themselves.
The demand for the right of return has been intentionally created as a non-starter issue, as a political tool by corrupt Palestinian politicians to prevent the implementation of a two-state solution. For decades, they have used this as a way to retain power and prevent their people from enjoying the benefits of statehood.
You have swallowed the new Zionist myths hook line and sinker.
"It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I"
But it was still Palestine, and Zionists from Europe decided it would be a good place to occupy, whether the indigenous population wanted them or not. Zionist literature repeatedly refers to 'Palestine' and the intention to rid it of Arabs using force if necessary, which still continues to this day!
Same reasoning.....no Jew has right to return to Israel capitalizing on the pains of the their ancestors who suffered Holocaust. Only direct descendants of those affected should have that right to some haven, and not Israel, that haven should be some place in Europe or USA.
I'd encourage those of you who aren't familiar with Sam's work to check it out online. You'll find not only great courage but profound wisdom and humanity as well.
"we have to focus on the judicial overhaul first, and then we can get to the issues, the kind of things you’re talking about"
In the 60s, when women started demanding equal say in leftist organizations, the answer was, We'll get to that later. Same old, same old.
As for being heckled: Good thing. That means you weren't preaching to the choir. You were telling people, some people, things they didn't want to hear, and that they needed to hear.
Thank you, Peter! For articulating so simply and so brilliantly what's missing in all those protests and why. "Saving" Israeli democracy, indeed, means returning to a democracy for Jews in Israel, and that will never be enough!
I, as an Israeli, who was raised in a Jewish family, am more than willing to give up my privileges that this label grants me, and share equally and fairly all the resources between the Jordan river and the sea.
Looking forward (and working towards) that day!
Thank you for making your voice heard and empowering this movement.
Peter, I'm 78 years old and pretty well past demonstrating - but if you ca n get a joint Israeli/Palestinian democracy demo I'll be there. I think it's a game-changing, visionary idea.
The reason why your audience didn't want to hear it is because they aren't as stupid as your supplicants here. They know what will happen should Israel give Palestinians the vote, as you demand, the same as what would happen if Ukraine gives Russia the vote.
When you are ready to get out of the ivory tower and start talking solutions, maybe then you'll find a receptive ear among people who actually care about human rights and not weaponizing them to justify terrorism and mas murder.
The reason they dont want to listen to one of the greatest minds, Beinart, is because they're deluded, brainwashed in formative years about their being special, chosen.
This mentality is the reason Israel wants to remain a Jewish state. They dont want the Palestinians to vote, they want them to remain a minority, a quasidemocracy.
There would be no murder if Israel did not steal land from the Palestinians. Palestinians want their land back and are under no obligation to follow orders from a white god and/or people who stole their land.
The Palestinians are not a minority in Israel, they are a separate nation living in a separate state. As for your laughable claim there would be no murder were it not for Israel's actions, allow me to educate you that there was murder before Israel even existed:
What about the 20% Arabs who remained as they other natives were made refugees? We know what's been happening in Israel, the Jewish state, the only "democracy" in ME. It wants to remain that way. Again, it boils down to the 3000 yrs delusion.
No YOU don't get it. If that's the case, Palestine can never be democratic because it's a Muslim majority. And the UK can never be democratic because it's a Christian majority. Learn something.
Land means nothing. Property and all possessions mean nothing. We are born with nothing, leave this place with nothing. I value human live. All lives and believe we are all equal. I'm humanist.
Bravo Peter! Yours is a true vision of democracy, and must've been very challenging to hear for those fearful of losing Jewish control over I-P. You can see that fear underlying some of the harsh comments below. Thank you for speakng the prophetic; we are so in need of unifying visions in our troubled world and if we are to survive, we MUST expand our view of who matters - all humanity.
Peter, you need to put down the white man's burden.
The Palestinians are not part of Israel's democracy. And they don't want to be. They want their own state. They want to rule themselves. They've been building their own state for decades and ignoring and minimizing that is offensive to them. The State of Palestine exists. Its people are citizens of Palestine. These are facts that are not to be denied just because it is inconvenient to your personal narrative.
Occupied countries are still countries and what you are calling for, for Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza and force the Palestinians living there to lose Palestinian citizenship and take on Israeli citizenship, is illegal under international law. It's not what Israelis want, it's not what Palestinians want, it's only what you want. I find your attitude condescending and imperialist.
It's not what Palestinians or Israelis want either. Look at the polls.
"Reflecting on the latest UN speech of president Abbas in which he described the situation on the ground in the West Bank as “apartheid” and that the Palestinian people will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples, 22% [of Palestinians] say that they are in favor of such one state solution while 75% expressed opposition. Three months ago, support for Abbas’ position on the one-state solution stood at 26%."
It was so thoughtful for you and Anonymous to make it out to New York to hear Mr. Beinart’s speech and provide the usual real-time feedback from the “comments” section. You both are very dedicated subscribers! 😄
If you want to be a leader of this campaign to change the Zionist orientation of Israel why don’t you move there. It is the sign of a timid soul telling Israelis what to do from the far away safety of New York City!
That's like Americans don't want to die in Ukraine, using Ukrainians as the sacrificial lambs/cannon fodder in the US WAR with Russia over Ukraine in NATO so the US can have boots on the ground right on Russia's border.
Peter, Thank you for this account of your talk at Washington Square. It did take courage to give that talk -- you must have anticipated that there would be a lot of folk in the crowd who would try to cancel you -- and you did it anyway.
Your basic point -- that Israel must be a democracy for all the people who live there not just for the present (Jewish) majority -- is not just true but indeed true by definition. A state in which the ethnic majority trample on the rights of and deny full human rights to the main ethnic minority is not, by definition, a "democracy" but an ethnographic-nationalist state of the kind that Hungary and Turkey are, India is becoming, and which the American right wing would like the US to become. Israel is going down that path through has not yet reached that endpoint, and even if the current protest movement succeeds in protecting the Israeli judiciary, it will continue down that path as long as it suppresses the civil and human rights of the Palestinians, both within Israel and the occupied territories.
Richard--you are very welcome in these conversations. I truly want people who totally disagree with my views. But try to speak respectfully to people.
Since we're calling out individuals, Peter, do you agree with "United States of War" in their comment below in which they state that a "majority of Jews" are "deluded about their special place in the universe: that they are chosen and can steal land at the expense of other human beings merely because of the color of their skin and religion" and that they are "people with herd mentality" and are "brainwashed"?
Winters, "you are not chosen, you are not more special than the poor, hungry kid in Palestine. And Jews and Israel are not "blessed".
Beinart and all smart Jews know this. Thank you Beinart, Chomsky, Finkenstein and other level headed Jews who are brave enough to call out this delusion.
You want Beinart to lie to you, tell you you're special? You're not. You share the world with other humans who are your equal.
I don't think I'm special. Why are you so hateful and bigoted towards Jews?
Don't hate anyone. Just call out those who think can take advantage of poor people without a voice.
Palestinians are humans, with feelings just like you.
Beinart's a clear eyed Jew, you think he's self hating Jew?
" Just call out those who think can take advantage of poor people without a voice."
Which, according to you, is "a majority of Jews".
I think Beinart is wrong. Do you think he's a "good Jew"? "One of the good ones"?
Call out oppressors, Jewish or not. Zionists oppress the Palestinians. Peter's saint.
Richard, like all who are not open minded and think are special, does not take criticism well.
Speaking truth to power requires courage, a courage you're consistently showing. Thank you from inside the cage of the West Bank.
When can we hear Palestinians like you speaking truth to power against Hamas and the PLO?
Sam Bahour, and many others, speak on many stages and platforms, you just need to look for it and be open minded!
Link?
Use google...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Sam+Bahour
Which of those videos contain him speaking truth to power against Hamas?
That's a whole different level of courage.
This wasn’t a pro Hamas commentary.
I didn't say it was.
Truth: The State of Palestine exists and the people there are citizens of the state of Palestine.
Truth: Occupation is not apartheid, even when Palestinians are the ones being occupied.
Truth: Israel does not control Gaza, Hamas does.
Truth: the state of Palestine isn’t a country and is part of Israel occupied territory.
Truth: occupation is apartheid when the citizens don’t have the same rights as other Israelis
Truth: Hamas controls Gaza but Israel has final say in what happens there. As they do in the the other occupied territories.
My dear, none of those things are true, and they don't become true just because you say so. The state of Palestine exists, it's a member of the UN. Occupation isn't apartheid and if you think I'm wrong show me where in the Geneva Conventions it says otherwise. Israel has no say on Hamas' tax policies or their throw gay people off rooftops policies. You're just wrong on every level.
Right, this is the reason there’s an expansion in settlements and Palestinians are evicted. Tell me about area C. The current government wants to evict all Palestinians.
Area C and the settlements aren't part of the state of Palestine.
Show me where in the Geneva Conventions it states occupation is apartheid.
Area C IS part of Palestine and if it was only the occupation you may be right, however the colonisation of the Palestinian territories makes that 2 differents civilian population are leaving under differents set of laws, it is apartheid.
All True!!
What I would really like to hear are Palestinian voices saying they accept Israel’s right to exist, that they would accept having their own peaceful state next to Israel and that the so-called nonsense of “right of return” would be to a new state of Palestine.
Where are these Palestinians?
Isn't it hypocritical to say that the right of return for Palestinians is nonsense, and yet any Jew anywhere in the world can go live in Israel? Isn't that an example of unequal treatment under the law?
No. Israel has immigration laws as does any other country in the world. As the only Jewish homeland, they have every right to allow Jews to go to their country. The “right of return“ is nonsense because the only refugees are those from 1948. Their descendants have no right to live in Israel. On what basis?? The 20% of the country who are Israeli Arabs are descendants of those who stayed in 1948, and they are Israeli citizens.
Your answer is consistent with the idea that a Jewish state can't be a democratic state. Yes, Israel is a state that makes its own laws, and it can allow Jews to immigrate but not extend the same privilege to other groups...and that is not a democratic policy.
The right of return for those who left in 1948 is based on the principle and the international recognition of the right of those who leave their homes and their land to return to it. What if the US decided that anyone who leaves can't return and the government confiscated their property?!
If it's not a democratic policy, why do numerous democracies have it as a policy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return
Israel is not a democracy. Democracy is rule by the people, not by some mythical figures, Israel's a Jewish state, a theocracy.
The modern state of Israel was established in 1948, after the end of British rule in Palestine and the United Nations' decision to partition the land into two states, one for Jews and one for Arabs.
Contrary to popular belief, the land on which Israel was founded was not stolen from the Palestinians. It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I, when it was awarded to the British as a mandate by the League of Nations. Under British rule, Jewish immigration to the area increased significantly as Jews sought refuge from anti-Semitism in Europe and the Middle East.
The partition plan was a proposal presented to both Jews and Arabs for consideration. While the Jewish leadership accepted it, the Arab leadership rejected it. When the British withdrew from Palestine in 1948, neighboring Arab states launched a war against the newly established state of Israel, aiming to prevent its creation and to conquer its territory. The war resulted in Israel's victory and the displacement of many Palestinians who left hoping to return after an Arab victory.
However, those Palestinians and their descendants who remained within the borders of Israel became Israeli citizens. The displacement of Palestinians was not the result of a premeditated plan by Israel, but rather a consequence of the war that they initiated.
Jews have maintained a presence in the land for thousands of years, and the establishment of another Jewish state there has been a long-held aspiration. The establishment of Israel was a fulfillment of this aspiration. Therefore, the land was not stolen from the Palestinians, but rather was part of a larger historical and political process that ultimately led to the creation of the state of Israel.
On the other hand, the descendants of Palestinian refugees are not entitled to a “right of return.” This right only applies to refugees themselves, not to their descendants, according to international law. The right of return is a personal right that applies only to those who were displaced from their homes, and not to subsequent generations.
Moreover, the descendants of refugees have never been displaced themselves, and therefore have no legal or moral claim to the right of return. The right of return is not a matter of inherited rights, but rather a matter of personal rights that are tied to the specific experiences of the individual refugees themselves.
The demand for the right of return has been intentionally created as a non-starter issue, as a political tool by corrupt Palestinian politicians to prevent the implementation of a two-state solution. For decades, they have used this as a way to retain power and prevent their people from enjoying the benefits of statehood.
You have swallowed the new Zionist myths hook line and sinker.
"It was part of the Ottoman Empire until the end of World War I"
But it was still Palestine, and Zionists from Europe decided it would be a good place to occupy, whether the indigenous population wanted them or not. Zionist literature repeatedly refers to 'Palestine' and the intention to rid it of Arabs using force if necessary, which still continues to this day!
What country has "the right to exist"? It's a fiction that Israelis have invented to keep Palestinians down.
What does that mean?
Where's justice??
Ask the criminal leaders of the Palestinian authority and Hamas.
Same reasoning.....no Jew has right to return to Israel capitalizing on the pains of the their ancestors who suffered Holocaust. Only direct descendants of those affected should have that right to some haven, and not Israel, that haven should be some place in Europe or USA.
Go read a history book so you stop sounding like such an idiot.
Thank you. It's ok to disagree. Not ok to insult those you disagree with.
Still deep in the denial phase, acceptance will come. Someday. You are not more than the Palestinians....
I'd encourage those of you who aren't familiar with Sam's work to check it out online. You'll find not only great courage but profound wisdom and humanity as well.
Great wisdom like opposing negotiations and blaming Israel for the Lebanon war? Interesting. Very interesting.
Thank you
You're welcome.
"we have to focus on the judicial overhaul first, and then we can get to the issues, the kind of things you’re talking about"
In the 60s, when women started demanding equal say in leftist organizations, the answer was, We'll get to that later. Same old, same old.
As for being heckled: Good thing. That means you weren't preaching to the choir. You were telling people, some people, things they didn't want to hear, and that they needed to hear.
Exactly. Wait your turn, they say, and then, whoops, what was it you wanted?
That? Nah. We have more important things to worry about.
Bravo peter, what a courageous and inspirational talk. Wish I’d been there.
Susan stebbins
Thank you, Peter! For articulating so simply and so brilliantly what's missing in all those protests and why. "Saving" Israeli democracy, indeed, means returning to a democracy for Jews in Israel, and that will never be enough!
I, as an Israeli, who was raised in a Jewish family, am more than willing to give up my privileges that this label grants me, and share equally and fairly all the resources between the Jordan river and the sea.
Looking forward (and working towards) that day!
Thank you for making your voice heard and empowering this movement.
Peter, I'm 78 years old and pretty well past demonstrating - but if you ca n get a joint Israeli/Palestinian democracy demo I'll be there. I think it's a game-changing, visionary idea.
The reason why your audience didn't want to hear it is because they aren't as stupid as your supplicants here. They know what will happen should Israel give Palestinians the vote, as you demand, the same as what would happen if Ukraine gives Russia the vote.
When you are ready to get out of the ivory tower and start talking solutions, maybe then you'll find a receptive ear among people who actually care about human rights and not weaponizing them to justify terrorism and mas murder.
The reason they dont want to listen to one of the greatest minds, Beinart, is because they're deluded, brainwashed in formative years about their being special, chosen.
This mentality is the reason Israel wants to remain a Jewish state. They dont want the Palestinians to vote, they want them to remain a minority, a quasidemocracy.
There would be no murder if Israel did not steal land from the Palestinians. Palestinians want their land back and are under no obligation to follow orders from a white god and/or people who stole their land.
The Palestinians are not a minority in Israel, they are a separate nation living in a separate state. As for your laughable claim there would be no murder were it not for Israel's actions, allow me to educate you that there was murder before Israel even existed:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
What about the 20% Arabs who remained as they other natives were made refugees? We know what's been happening in Israel, the Jewish state, the only "democracy" in ME. It wants to remain that way. Again, it boils down to the 3000 yrs delusion.
The 20% Arabs have the vote.
You dont get it. It's not democractic if it's a Jewish majority. It's a theocracy just like Iran.
No YOU don't get it. If that's the case, Palestine can never be democratic because it's a Muslim majority. And the UK can never be democratic because it's a Christian majority. Learn something.
So land means more to Palestinians than human lives?
No, you answer: Land means more to Jews than human lives? The Jews stole land from the Palestinians not the other way around.
Answer my question, I'll answer yours.
Land means nothing. Property and all possessions mean nothing. We are born with nothing, leave this place with nothing. I value human live. All lives and believe we are all equal. I'm humanist.
If land means nothing, why are Palestinians murdering people over it?
Bravo Peter! Yours is a true vision of democracy, and must've been very challenging to hear for those fearful of losing Jewish control over I-P. You can see that fear underlying some of the harsh comments below. Thank you for speakng the prophetic; we are so in need of unifying visions in our troubled world and if we are to survive, we MUST expand our view of who matters - all humanity.
i hope to see you one too! will definitely let you know
really interesting analogy. thanks for it
Peter, you need to put down the white man's burden.
The Palestinians are not part of Israel's democracy. And they don't want to be. They want their own state. They want to rule themselves. They've been building their own state for decades and ignoring and minimizing that is offensive to them. The State of Palestine exists. Its people are citizens of Palestine. These are facts that are not to be denied just because it is inconvenient to your personal narrative.
Occupied countries are still countries and what you are calling for, for Israel to annex the West Bank and Gaza and force the Palestinians living there to lose Palestinian citizenship and take on Israeli citizenship, is illegal under international law. It's not what Israelis want, it's not what Palestinians want, it's only what you want. I find your attitude condescending and imperialist.
What Peter wants is a combined Palestinian Israeli secular state with all inhabitants having equal rights.
Which is not what Palestinians or Israelis want. Like I said, he needs to put down the white man's burden.
It might not be what you want and white man’s burden is nonsense sophistry.
It's not what Palestinians or Israelis want either. Look at the polls.
"Reflecting on the latest UN speech of president Abbas in which he described the situation on the ground in the West Bank as “apartheid” and that the Palestinian people will demand equal rights in one state for two peoples, 22% [of Palestinians] say that they are in favor of such one state solution while 75% expressed opposition. Three months ago, support for Abbas’ position on the one-state solution stood at 26%."
https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/938
22%! Less than a quarter of Palestinians want one state for two peoples. But I'm sure you and Peter know better than them, don't you?
Winters,
It was so thoughtful for you and Anonymous to make it out to New York to hear Mr. Beinart’s speech and provide the usual real-time feedback from the “comments” section. You both are very dedicated subscribers! 😄
Thank you!
WOW! I wish I had been in Washington Square to hear your talk and catch the reactions. Thankyou for posting this and continue the great work.
Peter
If you want to be a leader of this campaign to change the Zionist orientation of Israel why don’t you move there. It is the sign of a timid soul telling Israelis what to do from the far away safety of New York City!
That's like Americans don't want to die in Ukraine, using Ukrainians as the sacrificial lambs/cannon fodder in the US WAR with Russia over Ukraine in NATO so the US can have boots on the ground right on Russia's border.
Peter, Thank you for this account of your talk at Washington Square. It did take courage to give that talk -- you must have anticipated that there would be a lot of folk in the crowd who would try to cancel you -- and you did it anyway.
Your basic point -- that Israel must be a democracy for all the people who live there not just for the present (Jewish) majority -- is not just true but indeed true by definition. A state in which the ethnic majority trample on the rights of and deny full human rights to the main ethnic minority is not, by definition, a "democracy" but an ethnographic-nationalist state of the kind that Hungary and Turkey are, India is becoming, and which the American right wing would like the US to become. Israel is going down that path through has not yet reached that endpoint, and even if the current protest movement succeeds in protecting the Israeli judiciary, it will continue down that path as long as it suppresses the civil and human rights of the Palestinians, both within Israel and the occupied territories.
So your view is that the occupied territories are "Israel" and the people who live there live in Israel?